Pewter

[goldstar31]

I was brought up on lead piping and chewing the heads off lead toy soldiers,
I'm 90+
So?

 

[DaveD]

Norman, your ML7 friend may be confused by the racing section of Colin Chapman's enterprise - 'Team Lotus' being sponsored by 'Gold Leaf' brand cigarette advertising in the late '60s. As far as am aware it was only gold coloured livery !
DaveD

 

[goldstar31]

All that glisters is not gold

But this old couple have no family and there is a TR3A plus quite a bit of Fairey stuff.
Of course, my friend's wife payed the organ and the sax( Not necessarily at the same time) at my son's wedding.
Clears throat and remarks seeing the S.W France thingie. He has a place in the Dordogne and speaks French rather better than the average Grenouille. He's taken for someone from the Touraine.
He's got a LHD corrugated iron 2CV as 'a mere bagatelle- and Dad here is bound by the 7 Year Rule and is thinking of a 'Petit Cadeau' pour les enfants terribles'!

Oui?

 

[abby]

Just to add to the story of tin , at prolonged below zero temperatures tin can change its allotropic form from a shiny silver metal to a dull grey dust.
A legend is that several tons of tin ingots stored in the unheated cellars of the Kremlin for a Russian czar turned to dust during a very cold winter and that the tin coating on food cans carried by a polar expedition also changed causing the food to perish.
Dan.

 

[MRA]

That's very interesting Dan. Do you know if it will simply melt back into a metallic form? My experience with melting fine-stuff is, it's hard to persuade it to melt as opposed to burn and turn to oxide dross.

Someone mentioned degassing upthread. There are various youtubers, some very experienced, who use washing soda (wrapped in tin foil and plunged into hot aluminium alloy) as a degasser, and others on there who say it doesn't work / buy the 'proper tablets' etc etc. I've tried it, and on turning the samples (with / without) for my very rough and ready comparison, I think I could convince myself that tiny bubbles were less in evidence when I used it. I mean _tiny_ bubbles - both samples were not obviously porous and hole-y, though I can manage that too on occasion in case anyone thinks I am some kind of expert.

 

[Richard Carlstedt]

I worked with (not for) several Aluminum Foundries and can add a few points to produce denser castings.
The "gas" you are getting rid of is Hydrogen. It has a huge affinity for Aluminum and other metals. .
Try to cover the crucible during and after melting to reduce exposure to Moist Air . Our castings could not be poured when high humidity existed as they were critical and needed high density. Also, you degass the melt immediately before pouring . If you degass and wait for a minute or two before pouring, it is too late.
A foundry man explained it to me this way
Humidity is a surplus of H2O ..
Oxygen has a huge affinity for hot metals ( think rusting after welding )
So when you melt metal ,the oxygen in moisture combines with the metal making dross and that frees the Hydrogen which exists in the metal as gas
The Flux you have in some melts is a barrier to moisture penetration
So Degass and skim dross and pour quickly
Rich

 

[William May]

So what is alloyed with the tin these days to make pewter? Or is pewter effectively extinct?

There is a theory that lead had an effect on the crews of the Franklin expedition in the Arctic. The tin can had just been invented and many were taken as stores on the ships. There was apparently high levels of lead in the solder used to make the cans. Examination of tins discarded in rubbish heaps on the shore showed great gouts of solder sticking into the inside of the cans. It is thought that food stored for a year in these tins would have been contaminated with lead from the solder and this contributed to the strange decisions that seemed to be made by the leaders of the expedition.

I think this is no longer a theory, but a fact. They did autopsies on the bodies of Franklin crewmen, (They found nearly all their graves) and I think they all had high levels of lead. (That was why they decided a piano was sacred, and physically moved it with them while they were slowly starving and dying of the cold. They were completely nuts by that time. )
There was a TV special on it here in the U.S. understand they have also found the Franklin ships, and the wrecks are now protected.

 

[William May]

I worked with (not for) several Aluminum Foundries and can add a few points to produce denser castings.
The "gas" you are getting rid of is Hydrogen. It has a huge affinity for Aluminum and other metals. .
Try to cover the crucible during and after melting to reduce exposure to Moist Air . Our castings could not be poured when high humidity existed as they were critical and needed high density. Also, you degass the melt immediately before pouring . If you degass and wait for a minute or two before pouring, it is too late.
A foundry man explained it to me this way
Humidity is a surplus of H2O ..
Oxygen has a huge affinity for hot metals ( think rusting after welding )
So when you melt metal ,the oxygen in moisture combines with the metal making dross and that frees the Hydrogen which exists in the metal as gas
The Flux you have in some melts is a barrier to moisture penetration
So Degass and skim dross and pour quickly
Rich

Degassing tablets for aluminum can be purchased from Porter-Warner Industries, in Phoenix, Arizona. They can also supply Phos-Copper shot for degassing brass castings. They are the people I get all my foundry supplies from, and they are VERY nice to deal with, as I am a tiny one-man foundry (Just me and the cat) (Although the cat is just an idler and layabout!) but they treat me the same as they do the huge companies like Asarco, who have huge smelting plants in Arizona and buy their supplies by the ton. I buy a little box of de-gassing tablets at a time. I sent some to Felgebiel (over in the "Engines" section) and am waiting to hear if his castings improved. PW also supply me with my drums of casting sand, parting dust, etc. I could not recommend them more highly. I have no interest in them except as a very satisfied customer. I make trips once or twice a year from Tucson to Phoenix to pick up foundry supplies.

 

[HMEL]

Hang on to the tin, alloyed with small amounts of cu and a tiny bit of lead makes babbitt bearings. Tin is also quite costly. Its great for toy soldiers small statues but not so good for things that require high strength. Its only put on tin cans for corrosion resistance. On the issue of lead many old piping systems were made of lead as well as pitchers for storing water. When used with wine the acid of made it worse as the Romans found out. Mix the lead with the tin and you have solder, a low melting alloy. In drinking water it affects children the most because they are growing. So most municipalities and environmental regulations discourage its use. And I have a nice scar from that high temperature no lead melting solder on my hand. Hard lesson learned of just how high that melting point was.

 

[goldstar31]

Tin is also quite costly. Its great for toy soldiers small statues but not so good for things that require high strength. Its only put on tin cans for corrosion resistance. On the issue of lead many old piping systems were made of lead as well as pitchers for storing water. When used with wine the acid of made it worse as the Romans found out.

I never quite believe historians! OK, I live within a stone's throw of Hadrian's Wall and and I have for those who have never been near to a bit sea between Europ and Africa it is called the Medi-terre- ranean . In other words it is s I say between TWO lands. I spent my summers where the Romand recruite people to throw stones. The Baleares in Spanish and the Balearic Islands for those who have never been.
Again I've lived where Hannibal took his elephants and further South to where the Madonna is not claimed to be olive skinned as per the Vatican( who had 2 Popes running together) and all sorts of paintings of Jesus but in the South of France there is a Belief of a Black madonna so following it through logically the Messiah could have been rather coloured. I'm merely linking or unlinking the other accounts!
So the Romans were 'down there' there are Coliseums and images of crocodiles and palm trees and - chains arpund there necks. No one has said what the metal was but you cannot expected historians to- well you can't. But I have been the Roman aqueduct at Pont( Bridge) du Garde and instead of having a swim went up to where the water was brought down - for hundreds of miles- there was no metal because the channels and the 'lids' were stone slabs. If one paddles around the once Roman cities it is all stone. So do I drink wine? To the des[air of the medics and the acceptance of my children who were brought up on water and wine, the Romans who do necessarily come from Rome got their wine in barrels and certainly by ship in amphora which had nothing to do ti n or whatever. They were made out of clay. Contrary to what historians do, I put a mask and fins and a lead weight belt and did a 'first' on a Roman galley. The juryy is out vwhether it carried St Paul on his way to Rome between the Maltese and the Croations but there is a Roman Galley off the headland at Mjlet. I tried to loosen one to give to a lady who became my wife!
And if you follow Charlees Graves I Claudius- book oof TV film they all drank out of tin /lead mugs?
The wine was decanted and realising the time quaff a measure( well me), it never stays in the glass mugs tin cup whatever- very long or long enough to for the lead to do a fat lot of damage.
And then the citizens of Rome? Most of them were slaves-- and a few were Vestal Virgins but did they all have a pmetal mug? You know there is a limit to what little boys could mine tin and lead and copper which were the stapple exports of what became England. Let's get real and go hundreds of years later and dig out a British man o'war and you find that most of the drinking and eating stuff was wood.
Probably the most dangerous tging in Ancient Rome Rome was malaria from the undrained( then ) Pontine Marshes. That was 2000 years ago but in 1914/18 WW1 men were dying of malaria in nearby Salonica- which you probably never heard of and that goes for the history mob. My uncle got a ar Pension from it.

Incidentally, if lead stunted groth, i'm delighted because I stopped growing when I was over 6 feet.

So I hope that I haven't ruined- pre-conceived notions( Oops)

 

[HMEL]

I never quite believe historians! OK, I live within a stone's throw of Hadrian's Wall and and I have for those who have never been near to a bit sea between Europ and Africa it is called the Medi-terre- ranean . In other words it is s I say between TWO lands. I spent my summers where the Romand recruite people to throw stones. The Baleares in Spanish and the Balearic Islands for those who have never been.
Again I've lived where Hannibal took his elephants and further South to where the Madonna is not claimed to be olive skinned as per the Vatican( who had 2 Popes running together) and all sorts of paintings of Jesus but in the South of France there is a Belief of a Black madonna so following it through logically the Messiah could have been rather coloured. I'm merely linking or unlinking the other accounts!
So the Romans were 'down there' there are Coliseums and images of crocodiles and palm trees and - chains arpund there necks. No one has said what the metal was but you cannot expected historians to- well you can't. But I have been the Roman aqueduct at Pont( Bridge) du Garde and instead of having a swim went up to where the water was brought down - for hundreds of miles- there was no metal because the channels and the 'lids' were stone slabs. If one paddles around the once Roman cities it is all stone. So do I drink wine? To the des[air of the medics and the acceptance of my children who were brought up on water and wine, the Romans who do necessarily come from Rome got their wine in barrels and certainly by ship in amphora which had nothing to do ti n or whatever. They were made out of clay. Contrary to what historians do, I put a mask and fins and a lead weight belt and did a 'first' on a Roman galley. The juryy is out vwhether it carried St Paul on his way to Rome between the Maltese and the Croations but there is a Roman Galley off the headland at Mjlet. I tried to loosen one to give to a lady who became my wife!
And if you follow Charlees Graves I Claudius- book oof TV film they all drank out of tin /lead mugs?
The wine was decanted and realising the time quaff a measure( well me), it never stays in the glass mugs tin cup whatever- very long or long enough to for the lead to do a fat lot of damage.
And then the citizens of Rome? Most of them were slaves-- and a few were Vestal Virgins but did they all have a pmetal mug? You know there is a limit to what little boys could mine tin and lead and copper which were the stapple exports of what became England. Let's get real and go hundreds of years later and dig out a British man o'war and you find that most of the drinking and eating stuff was wood.
Probably the most dangerous tging in Ancient Rome Rome was malaria from the undrained( then ) Pontine Marshes. That was 2000 years ago but in 1914/18 WW1 men were dying of malaria in nearby Salonica- which you probably never heard of and that goes for the history mob. My uncle got a ar Pension from it.

Incidentally, if lead stunted groth, i'm delighted because I stopped growing when I was over 6 feet.

So I hope that I haven't ruined- pre-conceived notions( Oops)

Lead does not stunt growth. It interferes with cognitive ability. And the amount in the body is measured from hair and tissue samples. So in fact you could grow to be quite large and not have all the lights on as the saying goes. And anthropologist do check bone samples for various poisons and contaminates when they get the chance to determine what they may have died from. When you work with metals you find that lead, mercury and beryllium deserve their fair share of respect. Spent some time in Rome, Spain and Greece visiting many of the fine museums located in the region. And I enjoyed the many fine wines also.

 

[glue-itcom]

Modern pewter is lovely to machine and the finish stays for years with a gentle patina forming. It is a tad soft and so be careful holding it in the lathe and take fine cuts - the aluminium tungsten tip tools work superbly on this. Also, I tend to turn this dry as I keep the swarf to remelt - I literally drill a hole in a piece of wood and pour the molten metal into it. Skim the surface of the molten metal before pouring as you do get some horrible oxides. Also, you get lots of smoke as the metal burns and forms a carbon surface.

I made the flywheel on my solenoid engine/motor using pewter and gently hammered the surface - photo taken just now and I think this engine must be approaching 10 years old, so still holding a nice finish on the flywheel

 

[Shopgeezer]

Well the Roman legions didn’t fight with wooden swords and their armour wasn’t made out of clay. They were tremendous metal workers. The slaves might have been drinking out of wooden bowels but the wealthy had all manner of fine metal utensils and table settings. Archeologists know their stuff. Modern analysis reveals all kinds of interesting things about the past.

 

[goldstar31]

It would seem that the Roman Army was comprised of 30 Legions each with no more than 5-6000 fighting men. They guarded 70 million inhabitants of the Roman Empire- all with tin mugs?
Before all this happened, there was the Bronze Age. Indeed, it dod happen in England and , it may surprise but I used to sit in an armchair and at the back of it was a glass case containing an almost complete Bronze Age skeleton. Two were unearthed (pardon) and with the ciste of a child and the other was exhibited next to a statue of Lord Armstrong in the grounds of the Hancock Museum which had or has an Egyptian 'mummy. She was really a Mummy.

 

[Canyonman]

Thank You for the tips Nigel. Ken

 

[ddmckee54]

The Romans added what was called "Sugar of Lead" to their wine to make it more palatable, if they could afford it. (Google sugar of lead to find out how it was made.)

Don

 

[Mousetrap]

I was brought up on lead piping and chewing the heads off lead toy soldiers,
I'm 90+
So?

As well as every thing painted with lead based paint which included wooden toys, wooden cots and wooden play pens that we children would chew on.

 

[goldstar31]

As well as every thing painted with lead based paint which included wooden toys, wooden cots and wooden play pens that we children would chew on.

Well Yes but those years are 'When I was a cild, I spake as a child and so on.
I don't honestly believe i the fullness of life that that lead had little to do with decreasing mortality.
I've sort of done it all and recalled quite clearly my maternal grandfather describing his exploits of actually boiling the lead which he had mined. There are people who come as day trippers, formulate opinions and pronounce to people who have never even been on a day trip, their accumulated authority- and had time to consume fish and cipps and mushy peas assaulted by with an overzealous amount of salt from a a battered aluminium salt sellar excesses mined salt from .
Saints Preserve us!
With one whole day, we snotty, pimply little urchins were given a lesson in chemistry - never to be repeated. I was 11 and we made inedible common salt. And that was it. The guy flew off to a bombing raid ion Germany and we were dirty little gutter snipes to do our best with a second hand WW2 chemistry set.
Somehow, I seem to recall that acetic acid necessary to be the acid to react with the lead is either wine vinegar or spirit vinegar and it reacts with lead and very locically of you are not fast drinker and leave your almost undrinkable vino collapso, it will yield a sort of sweet drink.
Lets be real, the rich of ancient Roman were stinking rich band consumed and drank from golden vessels- which took Aqua Regia` a mixure of Nitric and sulphuric acid to make much of an impression.

The second line i the sort of pecking order would be from silver. and way down this only second from the bottom from actually drinking out of 'lead' cups.

Frankly, I'm far too old to be take in- with third or worse hand evidence. here may be something which I could have escaped my Rheumy eyes.
So comment, please

Norman

 

[Richard Hed]

Well Yes but those years are 'When I was a cild, I spake as a child and so on.
I don't honestly believe i the fullness of life that that lead had little to do with decreasing mortality.
I've sort of done it all and recalled quite clearly my maternal grandfather describing his exploits of actually boiling the lead which he had mined. There are people who come as day trippers, formulate opinions and pronounce to people who have never even been on a day trip, their accumulated authority- and had time to consume fish and cipps and mushy peas assaulted by with an overzealous amount of salt from a a battered aluminium salt sellar excesses mined salt from .
Saints Preserve us!
With one whole day, we snotty, pimply little urchins were given a lesson in chemistry - never to be repeated. I was 11 and we made inedible common salt. And that was it. The guy flew off to a bombing raid ion Germany and we were dirty little gutter snipes to do our best with a second hand WW2 chemistry set.
Somehow, I seem to recall that acetic acid necessary to be the acid to react with the lead is either wine vinegar or spirit vinegar and it reacts with lead and very locically of you are not fast drinker and leave your almost undrinkable vino collapso, it will yield a sort of sweet drink.
Lets be real, the rich of ancient Roman were stinking rich band consumed and drank from golden vessels- which took Aqua Regia` a mixure of Nitric and sulphuric acid to make much of an impression.

The second line i the sort of pecking order would be from silver. and way down this only second from the bottom from actually drinking out of 'lede' cups.

Frankly, I'm far too old to be take in- with third or worse hand evidence. hre may be something which I could have escaped my Rheumy eyes.
So comment, please

Norman

l for one don't wish to take it

 

[goldstar31]

l for one don't wish to take it

And you are the one that wanted to buy a heap of cast iron and machine it to form dust which inevitably a lot will be inhaled------- but think again that cast iron was probably coated with a lead based paint which you would would have to remove.

You were prepared to create and enter this scenario.
So I'm glad - for your sake- that you lost the sale and the subsequent dangers from paint inhalation.
And you were smoking!