New Quorn Build (question)

[nel2lar]

Norm
I guess the answer to your question of why could be a very easy one. The cost of fuel to melt that cast iron and the stupid laws making it no longer profitable. It is sad but a man or woman with a CNC could take a block of metal and widdle out a quality part and I am sure the cost to the owner of a company would be less that casting.

 

[goldstar31]

Inadvertently, I have run into 'copyright' issues in an effort to help other readers here.
It would be better for me to humbly apologise and avoid further contributions.
Norman

 

[nel2lar]

It is so sad about this "copyright subject". It was just years ago almost all of this info was shared. Someone found that they could profit from it and now it is what we all put up with. The info is out there so let you search engines do their job. You can find most of what you look for.

 

[goldstar31]

Nelson
My sentiments entirely. I suspect that some bits which I wrote years ago, are someone else's copy right now.

Most of these old brigade wrote mainly for the less experienced( like me) to benefit.

I've an old mate- though a bit younger, who actually paid for the printing of his deliberations. Indeed, he is accepted as a World authority on certain topics.
When he sent me his two books- free of course, he commented then about the 'same damned fool questions receiving the same damned fool answers'
He found me- with eye problems years back and I got a brilliant loup to try and help.

Like me, he made his money from other pursuits and 'model engineering' was one of his gifts to mankind . He has cancer now, doesn't say much about except to friends and writes freely= in another web site which I am not allowed to mention.

I wonder what sort of miserable
web site would the model engineers would have if we wanted filthy lucre/

So let's pat each other on the back, those who give so freely of their time and experience!

Big Cheers

Norm

 

[retailer]

Forums such as this are a great place to share ideas and procedures, the subject of copyright is a tricky one and I feel that just about everyone would download copyright work given the opportunity - I'm no exception. I did contemplate buying Malcolm Stride's book on model engines after I drew a blank searching for a downloadable copy, however I'm glad I didn't and for me it would have been a waste on money - I located a copy at my local library and found it does not really give any great info that is not available in forums such as this, you just need to take the time search.

 

[Cogsy]

Gentlemen - what you are advocating for here is not "openly sharing ideas" but is actually stealing the works of others. Would you walk in to a shop, slip a copy of the book under your coat and walk out without paying? What about purchasing a copy of one of Brain Rupnows' plan sets then uploading them for free so everyone can share them? Both these things are equally as bad as what you are advocating for.

Norman - you recommend people read 'this' book and 'that' book ad nauseam so you clearly see the value in having such publications, yet if the market for such materials is removed by people illegally copying and sharing such materials then no future works will be produced. You have previously confessed to having worked for a living and have claimed to now be a millionaire, yet you ask "I wonder what sort of miserable web site would the model engineers would have if we wanted filthy lucre/ ". Why did you deserve to be rewarded for your efforts but the authors of the books you hold in such high stead deserve nothing for theirs?

Legally, what you are advocating for is wrong (and the copyright holders can enforce this legality). Further than that though, what you are advocating for is morally wrong and hurts our hobby. Finally, what you are advocating for is against the rules of this forum, for both of these reasons. Breaches of this policy on this forum will not be tolerated.

 

[Wizard69]

The copyright system is easy to understand so I’m not sure why people have so much trouble doing the right thing. It is up to the author to decide if he wants to profit from his efforts. If so a book gets printed or the work gets distributed in another manner as a copyrighted work.

If the author intends for the work to be freely distributed he can put it in the public domain or use a license that allows for sharing. Again it is up to the person putting in all the effort, work really, to decide if he wants to share the work freely. By the way guys there is real work in writing especially technical related instructions. Believe me here I’ve had to do this at work. It may look easy but you can’t assume anything. Combine that with engineer/design effort required to actually have material for a book and you will realize that there might be years of work in a book published to support this interest.

 

[nel2lar]

I jumped in on something that is a touchy one with a lot of people. When the Professor first started this machine. He was not looking to make a killing but it cost money to do all he did and for the money it is worth it. If a person buys it as a set it comes with documentation that gives dimensions and all the info needed to build the machine right. The green cover book will not do it by itself. If someone wants to build they could go with the Bonelle Grinder which is made from bar stock.
Nelson

 

[retailer]

My casting set (purchased some 30yrs ago, but only recently built) came with a many pages of A3 sized drawings but I went ahead and purchased a copy of the book as well, I may be wrong here but as I recall it I was only just into the build before I stopped using the drawings and relied only on the book, if I get time I'll go through the drawing set and book to see if all of the drawings are in the book. As the casting set came with drawings then if you are the owner of a secondhand set are you entitled to have a set of drawings even if you have to resort to downloading to get them ?

Most/all of us know and agree that it is against forum rules to post copyright material on the forum, I believe the downloading and sharing of copyright material will never stop, it's not done openly on the forum but goes on in the back ground, it is one of those things that many people view in the same way as speeding to make an appointment, texting your partner while driving or pilfering stationary items from work, while all of these are illegal most only see it as just wrong and then make excuses and go ahead anyway.

 

[Cogsy]

As far as I know (but I'm not a lawyer), simply having a secondhand (or even firsthand) casting set does not entitle you to breach copyright of the plans. There has been many cases of people purchasing secondhand casting sets for all sorts of things and having to buy plan sets. Similarly, people have lost plans for casting sets they've had for years and had to repurchase a set.
I don't know the legality (again, I'm not a lawyer) but if someone were to have a casting set, with full plans, yet somehow managed to damage a small part of those plans such that the section was unreadable, it may be allowable for another person to provide a copy of that section. This seems reasonable, being that both people do have the right to use the plans under the copyright, but for all I know it might still be legally wrong (although I'd say it's at least morally correct in this case).

 

[goldstar31]

I confess to being in a quandary.
Way back in 1974, I bought the relevant copies which Model engineer published in 1974 for the Quorn. With these , I bought the castings dropped from Professor Chaddock's original patterns from Ivan Law as the official supplier trading as Model Engineering Services- and made them up and have them today.
In the meantime, the official drawings are copied and embodied in his book. From these, others have bought castings etc from MES. MES no longer functions! The only sources of supplies are the USA and Australia( I think) So British workers are stuck!
So there are two copyrights- or three but in my case, the original publishers of Model Engineer went into liquidation and then they were bought out. Somewhere in this confusion, so are my bits and bobs which I've mentioned- and not paid for. Not matter, really

So where am I in all this? Do I hit my Quorn with a hammer or what?
I'm almost 90 years of age, partially blind now, I certainly do not want to go through the throes of trying to sell it and my two children with my Enduring Powers of Attorney have instructions not to be bothered with the extra burden of an outdated(?) toy and to scrap it! There's a rather tricky set of rules on inheritance- or my living or dying- and an ancient Quorn - well, really? Going back to my Cost Accountancy days, it should have been written off years ago
Not quite as straight forward as originally thought in those halcyon days of 1974.

Perhaps someone could comment

Norman

 

[Charles Lamont]

An aspect of this I don't understand. The drawings and construction series were published originally in Model Engineer. So the drawings and the articles are copyright. If I have bought a copy of the magazine or book I am free to give it away or sell it. I may make copies for purposes like review or private study (or am I confusing patent and copyright law). I don't see that that precludes anyone who wants to from using the information to make a set of patterns, or from selling castings made from those patterns (without drawings). It is therefore the bit about 'official' supplier that I don't get.
Indeed as far as I know, if I were daft enough, I could make and sell complete Quorns as a business without owing any royalties.

 

[goldstar31]

My ancient recollections of Model Engineer was that articles and working drawings were published, paid for and it accepted adverts from people who made patterns and sold castings.
It was a yesterday of people who did things for the hell of it, to help others with no thoughts of legal implications or whatever.
We all made our coins elsewhere and simply enjoyed scribbling about it.
Professor Chaddock had a homemade mill drill out of Ned Westbury's design which was improved by Ivan Law of Model Engineering Services and who part machined the second amateurs mill drill. Chaddock couldn't gt small enough end mills to make his V-12 'Merlon???' and made a Quorn to do it-- and wrote about it.
Let's face it, Chaddock was the Principal of a leading Engineering College and was involved in the Manhattan Project( Oh yes). If you read his account in Model Engineer he was far more concerned with telephone calls and his toilet overflowing that making money from a very small clientele of would be constructors who - well I seem to recall a £100 to start a Quorn.

I made a Westbury mill drill from awful castings dropped and machined at evening classes. They were published in Model Engineer as Westbury was the-- Editor.

I hope that this is rather better than third hand or worse history. For good or ill, I was there- and still have fairly clear recollections.

 

[retailer]

I went through every sheet of plans and also the book (mine has a brown cover) and can confirm that (with my drawing set at least) all of the drawings in the set are in the book so it should easily be possible to machine a set of castings using only the book, and more than probably a person could build a fabricated (no castings) Quorn from the drawings in the book - the only advantage one may get from the drawing set is that being A3 sized they are quite a bit bigger than the drawings in the book, - the book does a have a distinct advantage in that Chaddock describes the various machining processes, assembling and setting it up, grinding wheel choices etc. and then the use of the machine plus a description of extras that can be made, it would suit any builder from a newbie that needs someone to hold their hand to the experienced hobbyist. My plan set only has dimensioned drawings and no text on the assembly, setting up, grinding wheel types etc.

 

[goldstar31]

The Late Ron Chernich( The model engine man) wrote up a superb account as 'A Rank Beginner builds the Quorn' in Model Engine News.

In my opinion, it gives a fresh view about some of the construction and also a list of the materials which are needed in addition to the castings etc.

Repeating myself, I've seen two fabricated 'Quorns' one of which was extended and it had a lift mechanism to lift the wheel head. The Column was also graduated.

Again, more repetition, I have a fabricated Stent- which I didn't make and despite the fact that the slides are steel on steel works admirably and doesn't suffer unduly from grit.

Again, I have a Kennet( also from ex Model Engineering Services) and when a member of another website got a part set of castings guided him through the finalising ot it.

Writing about welding, the Brooks which appears in issues 16 and 17 of Model Engineers Workshop and recommended by GadgetBuilder.com only needs one weld.

Of course, I have a Mark1 Clarkson and this U2/3 Deckel clone 'thing' which came with no
manual.

I scrapped the Worden because I was driven to distraction with the grit problem.

"nuff for the moment?

 

[Cogsy]

Charles - I'm not sure what the licenses provided by the purchase of the magazine entitle the purchaser to, that's something for a lawyer. I do know that many plan sets, even though you've purchased a legitimate copy, only grant you a license to make one item from those plans. Something similar may be in place in some magazines.

Norman - your "inadvertent" problem with copyright was your attempt to promote/share digital copies of a highly sought-after book that was originally published a mere 21 years ago and is still being sold in brand-new physical form both online and off. This material was NOT related specifically to the Quorn. This is not some esoteric piece of important wisdom in danger of being lost to the ages but a valuable commercial product that is protected by copyright and is not to be shared. Whether you care about "legal implications or whatever" is irrelevant - if you share copyrighted material on the forum consequences will follow.

 

[goldstar31]

Cogsy

Sadly, my efforts were an attempt to help another reader. I felt sorry for him, rather like the image of the despised Samaritan- in some circles.

Actually, the reader has bought a book to assist his progress in gear cutting.

Be assured that my efforts to help where possible copyright issues exist will not happen again.

So Thank you for guidance.