Mini diesel engine.

[Badhippie]

Yes k2 I did know this I worked on Cummins engines for 20 years then I was in charge of a locomotive engine rebuild shop and component rebuild and machine shop for about 11 years. Yes I am very well aware of what a Diesel engine produces. I think sometimes I exhaust diesel smoke I have inhaled so much over the years lol lol. People think exhaust from a gas engine will kill you and yes it is true. But diesel exhaust will eat you from the inside out lol

 

[Chris Murphy]

When you add moisture to sulphur.....all you get is damp sulphur! There is some rather ill understood chemistry being written above-for a start you don't get sulphuric acid that way-it is formed by sulphur TRI-OXIDE reacting with water. The product you get in diesel exhaust is sulphur DI-OXIDE -not sulphur which is an element. Sulphur DI-oxide and moisture produces sulphurOUS not sulphurIC acid. This is junior high school chemistry level stuff... ! There are all sorts of trace level components in crude oil-many of which make their way into various fuels in trace levels....how much is determined either by suppliers or government regulation-which can differ widely in different jurisdictions. As for nitrous and nitric oxides-well I guess you'd better complain to mother nature about how inconsiderate she was making the atmosphere 4/5 nitrogen.....and leaving it contaminated by 20% oxygen...

ChrisM
Bsc(Hons) PhD (in light of the above I'll let you guess in what subject area...)

 

[Steamchick]

Thanks Chris, not being a chemist I value your input! I just know a little about a lot of things, and get notions that may be off-the mark. But, I think, the principles are there. "Nasty" chemicals are made in the engine. The curious thing about room temperature chemistry versus combustion chamber chemistry, is that in the combustion chamber there is a lot of heat, molecules become ionised, and the pressure is more than 20 times atmospheric in parts, so a lot of odd reactions occur that would not happen at STP. e.g. NOx formation. And what happens in the spark in spark ignition engines? - Possibly Ozone formation etc.? - I really haven't a clue, but your advice will be of interest (to me at least).
I only really know that engine oils contain additives (Such as Zinc compounds) to neutralise all the various acids in the blow-by gases, that when dissolved in oil (with some H2O), form highly corrosive acids that need to be neutralised by the Zinc, etc, additives. And similarly, the move from steel to stainless steel exhausts was in part due to the acidic condensate accumulating in exhaust systems and causing "early life" failures. (Such failures are banned by legislation in the emissions laws - minimum 80,000km lifetime, etc. & "no leaks" clauses.).
Thanks.
K2

 

[ajoeiam]

One thing that has not been mentioned that I have seen in this thread. The normal diesel exhaust should I say all diesel exhaust has a very nasty chemical it produces. You can’t get rid of it but you sure in the hell can make it worse by incorrect injector timing, a dripping injector, incorrect pump to engine timing etc.
The chemical a Diesel engine exhaust produces is sulfur this is a by-product you of combustion process. Then you add another by-product that every engine in the world produces is moisture. Then you add moisture to sulfur and what do you have?? A great little product called sulfuric acid. This is just something for everyone to think about when building a Diesel engine. With proper maintenance of the engine it’s should never be a problem. But without proper maintenance it becomes a huge problem. I have actually seen rod caps,rod studs and other items either eroded or eaten all the way thru and cause catastrophic engine failure. Just wanted to throw that out there and let you all soak that up
Thanks
Tom

Sorry - - - your information on sulfur in diesel is about 40 years out of date.
Tried finding the date of introduction in North America and can't in a short search.
Ultra-low sulfur diesel (0.05%) has been around since some time in the 90s. There was an increase in fuel additive recommendations to counter the change in the fuel formulations that were happening (one of the better additives is actually 'bio-diesel' - - - grin! see "Howe's diesel (something or other - - - cant' remember right now if its called conditioner or what)).
Only #5 and 6 diesel - - - more commonly called bunker fuel are allowed higher rates of sulfur inclusion (higher lubricity in the fuel!!).
If you really are that panicked by the amount of sulfur in diesel exhaust I do hope that you are mitigating your exhausts because your natural gases from the lower end contain significantly higher amounts of sulfur and even the CO and CO2 from your breathing could be considered problematic if one wants to follow the newest most paranoid thinking.

 

[ajoeiam]

Thanks Chris, not being a chemist I value your input! I just know a little about a lot of things, and get notions that may be off-the mark. But, I think, the principles are there. "Nasty" chemicals are made in the engine. The curious thing about room temperature chemistry versus combustion chamber chemistry, is that in the combustion chamber there is a lot of heat, molecules become ionised, and the pressure is more than 20 times atmospheric in parts, so a lot of odd reactions occur that would not happen at STP. e.g. NOx formation. And what happens in the spark in spark ignition engines? - Possibly Ozone formation etc.? - I really haven't a clue, but your advice will be of interest (to me at least).
I only really know that engine oils contain additives (Such as Zinc compounds) to neutralise all the various acids in the blow-by gases, that when dissolved in oil (with some H2O), form highly corrosive acids that need to be neutralised by the Zinc, etc, additives. And similarly, the move from steel to stainless steel exhausts was in part due to the acidic condensate accumulating in exhaust systems and causing "early life" failures. (Such failures are banned by legislation in the emissions laws - minimum 80,000km lifetime, etc. & "no leaks" clauses.).
Thanks.
K2

I do hope that you're getting a lot more than 20x atmospheric pressure in even your gas engine. In a diesel engine it is even higher.

I wonder if there has been any measuring of the ozone caused by the use of electric motors in vehicles?

(Seems that there has but the quantities are presently being pooh poohed. Somehow I remember a huge brouhaha not even that long ago about the depleting upper atmospheric ozone caused purportedly by those vile automobiles - - - maybe we all just need to walk - - - ie get rid of all personal transportation! - - - no horses either!)

 

[minh-thanh]

Hi!
Are you too worried about CO, CO2, NO, NO2, acids ....generated with diesel engine 10cc ?

Running the engine in a well-ventilated area
and the maintenance of the engine after running is something I do very carefully, so I don't worry .

 

[Chris Murphy]

The simple reality is that our engines operate at elevated temperatures and pressures-as steamchick notes above-at elevated temps and pressures all sorts of other reactions occur-including those that might not occur at room temperature and unconstrained combustion. A variety of metals are involved in our engines-some of which may well contribute to the myriad of reactions by providing a degree of unintended catalytic effect-especially with the use of some exotic metals in spark plugs, let alone the other additives we find in fuel. There will always be side reactions and trace level/trace element reactions going on under the guise of the overall combustion process-which of course is never stoichiometrically complete.....by chemistry standards...which is why we get soot and carbon monoxide emitted-in addition to all the other components.

If we can cast our minds back to the late 70s and early 80s.....the big issues THEN were acid rain and global COOLING....the former largely being a result of the extensive use of coal in industry-another fossil fuel that contains a fair amount of sulphur.....and surprise surprise, oxides of sulphur were one of the contributors to acid rain....along with the analagous various oxides of nitrogen-which also contribute-in the form of nitrous and nitric acids.

We tend to conveniently overlook the other nasties like cadmium and other various heavy metals also present in crude oil-and in some cases added during processing-I need hardly comment on TEL....but there are all sorts of things being emitted into the environment-some of which we get concerned enough about to do something about-others are either overlooked or put in the too hard basket.

We also have a very bad habit as a species, of panicking, banning something and introducing a 'cleaner, greener' substitute which turns out to be significantly inferior to the product it replaced-I give you lead free solder, low energy lightbulbs (the non LED type) and NiMH batteries as good examples....

ChrisM

 

[Nerd1000]

I do hope that you're getting a lot more than 20x atmospheric pressure in even your gas engine. In a diesel engine it is even higher.

I wonder if there has been any measuring of the ozone caused by the use of electric motors in vehicles?

(Seems that there has but the quantities are presently being pooh poohed. Somehow I remember a huge brouhaha not even that long ago about the depleting upper atmospheric ozone caused purportedly by those vile automobiles - - - maybe we all just need to walk - - - ie get rid of all personal transportation! - - - no horses either!)

A bit off topic, but modern EVs invariably use some kind of three phase electronically commutated motor (usually induction motors or permanent magnet brushless motors), so the main source of ozone (sparking at the brushes of a DC commutator) simply doesn't exist.

Regards the ozone depletion issue, it was the CFCs in aerosol cans (and airconditioning units) that were the problem, not car exhaust. With ozone, it really is a matter of where. Ozone in the upper atmosphere is good because it absorbs UV rays from the sun, a topic close to my heart given I'm a white guy living in subtropical Australia. Ozone at ground level is bad, it basically acts like gaseous bleach and breathing it has predictable effects on your health.

As for peak combustion pressures, somewhere in the vicinity of 30 bar is probably reasonable for a model SI engine. Diesels could easily be exceeding 100 bar.

The exhaust emissions from a model diesel are probably less acutely dangerous than from a model gas engine, there is generally going to be a lot less carbon monoxide to poison you if you're indoors. But the soot causes cancer, so try not to breathe too much of it.

 

[ajoeiam]

A bit off topic, but modern EVs invariably use some kind of three phase electronically commutated motor (usually induction motors or permanent magnet brushless motors), so the main source of ozone (sparking at the brushes of a DC commutator) simply doesn't exist.

Regards the ozone depletion issue, it was the CFCs in aerosol cans (and airconditioning units) that were the problem, not car exhaust. With ozone, it really is a matter of where. Ozone in the upper atmosphere is good because it absorbs UV rays from the sun, a topic close to my heart given I'm a white guy living in subtropical Australia. Ozone at ground level is bad, it basically acts like gaseous bleach and breathing it has predictable effects on your health.

As for peak combustion pressures, somewhere in the vicinity of 30 bar is probably reasonable for a model SI engine. Diesels could easily be exceeding 100 bar.

The exhaust emissions from a model diesel are probably less acutely dangerous than from a model gas engine, there is generally going to be a lot less carbon monoxide to poison you if you're indoors. But the soot causes cancer, so try not to breathe too much of it.

Hmmm - - - no sparking even at starts?

Hmmmmmm - - - - soot causes cancer - - - - so does living. Even more so where the food you eat generally has so very often been modified from its original state.

The reassurance from our national inspector - - - - " . . . for the production of good wholesome food . . . . " - - - - ya right - - - pizza pops anyone?

The analogy that I first heard some over 40 years ago was re: the making of bread.
The modern method if making bread is akin to taking a brand new luxury car to the crushers and then after the car's condensing to take it back to the rebuilding shop and then rebuild it trying to achieve 'like new' results.
Don't work much for the car - - - - and similarly for the bread.
(It doesn't help that the 'modern preferred' form of such is much closer to that of a dessert item from 4 or 5 hundred years ago.
'Real' bread - - - a.k.a. that made for the serious working guy - - - its bloody hard to find!!!)

 

[Badhippie]

Hello
Here are the specific chemicals found in diesel
smoke.
Chemical contaminant Note Concentration, ppm
acetaldehyde IARC Group 2B (possible) carcinogens
acrolein IARC Group 3 possible carcinogens
aniline IARC Group 3 possible carcinogens
arsenic IARC Group 1 carcinogens, endocrine disruptor[citation needed]
benzene[1] IARC Group 1 carcinogens
biphenyl Mild toxicity[citation needed]
bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate Endocrine disruptor[27][28][29][30]
1,3-Butadiene IARC Group 2A carcinogens
cadmium IARC Group 1 carcinogens, endocrine disruptor[citation needed]
chlorine Byproduct of urea injection[citation needed]
chlorobenzene "[L]ow to moderate" toxicity[31]
cresol§
dibutyl phthalate Endocrine disruptor[citation needed]
1,8-dinitropyrene Strongly carcinogenic[32][33]
ethylbenzene
formaldehyde IARC Group 1 carcinogens
inorganic lead Endocrine disruptor[citation needed]
methanol
methyl ethyl ketone
naphthalene IARC Group 2B carcinogens
nickel IARC Group 2B carcinogens
3-nitrobenzanthrone (3-NBA) Strongly carcinogenic[32][34] 0.6-6.6[35]
4-nitrobiphenyl Irritant, damages nerves/liver/kidneys[36] 2.2[37][38]
phenol
phosphorus
pyrene[1] 3532–8002[37][39]
benzo(e)pyrene 487–946[37][39]
benzo(a)pyrene IARC Group 1 carcinogen 208–558[37][39]
fluoranthene[1] IARC Group 3 possible carcinogens 3399–7321[37][39]
propionaldehyde
styrene IARC Group 2B carcinogens
toluene IARC Group 3 possible carcinogens
xylene§ IARC Group 3 possible carcinogens

 

[Badhippie]

Sorry should have said Diesel Exhaust

 

[awake]

Hmmm - - - no sparking even at starts?

No spark gap in the system.

'Real' bread - - - a.k.a. that made for the serious working guy - - - its bloody hard to find!!!)

I've been making bread for the family for 20+ years. I started when my kids were toddlers, and now they won't eat anything else but home made bread!

 

[minh-thanh]

I have many intentions with this thread .
But in the past few days, I'm not in the mood to talk about it anymore.
I really feel discouraged .

 

[Stefan-K]

I really feel discouraged .

I totally agree! A lot of Bla Bla about Things that have nothing to Do with the original thread. Sadly you find this behaviour more and more on this forum.

 

[ajoeiam]

No spark gap in the system.

I've been making bread for the family for 20+ years. I started when my kids were toddlers, and now they won't eat anything else but home made bread!

Grew up on mom's. Have made some here - - - need to back into that as well.
Wish there were more hours in the day though!!!

 

[ajoeiam]

I totally agree! A lot of Bla Bla about Things that have nothing to Do with the original thread. Sadly you find this behaviour more and more on this forum.

TL;DR
Well it is a common problem when you are talking with multi-dimensional people.

Getting frustrated with the rabbit trails will likely only hurt your enjoyment of the site.

Its easy enough to glance at and then ignore any message that you don't find interesting.
In fact there are more than a few threads that I find interesting that I haven't even posted on - - - I didn't think I had anything to add in the conversation to that point - - - still interested in the topic.

 

[Stefan-K]

Well, i'm pretty sure its not only my enjoyment of the site. I'm not the only one.... I think it would be much easier for all here if the Posters would stay at the thread theme. This is a Model Engine maker forum and that's exactly why i'm here. If i would like to read about the" life adventures " of others i'd look for a Yahoo Drama Chat room.

 

[ajoeiam]

Well, i'm pretty sure its not only my enjoyment of the site. I'm not the only one.... I think it would be much easier for all here if the Posters would stay at the thread theme. This is a Model Engine maker forum and that's exactly why i'm here. If i would like to read about the" life adventures " of others i'd look for a Yahoo Drama Chat room.

Making the site mono-dimensional has the following effect.
In the thread "Wanted bill of materials for Satra O-440 "
there is an admission from one of the posters that the writer and the individual that was doing the castings (IIRC) only talked machining.
Now the individual has died - - - - - and it is proving to be very very very difficult to find information that would have been very easy to find were the individual still alive. Presently - - - finding the information and who may have the rights and responsibilities thereunto is incredibly difficult.

Life has shown me that when I put people in boxes - - - a la the Procrustean method - - - - I lose in the long term.
I do not need to be everyone's bestie (modern vernacular for best friend) but knowing somewhat about them and their situation and some of their other interests helps me know them as a person. Our societies predilection for making people mono-dimensional is imo to be decried NOT extolled!!

Herewith ends my involvement with this particular topic.

 

[minh-thanh]

When I started this thread, everything was fine
During the process of building the engine, there were some opinions and arguments, ...and I was really annoyed
After a lot of trial and error ... I succeeded with the diesel engine . And, again with the debate about "what is a diesel engine,...."
After a lot of experimenting with my engine, I have learned a few things about it and want to share it with everyone. I know there are a few people trying to build their own diesel engine (with my design as well as their own design).
For a person , English is the main language , it only takes them 29 seconds to write as I posted . But for me it took more than 30 minutes to translate and edit , translate and edit , trying to be as precise , concise and clear as possible
And when I posted the part that was fine, it started again with the comments: " the toxicity of diesel engine smoke "
And maybe, someone will say: "My diesel engine will damage the ozone layer, poison the earth's atmosphere, or contribute to the destruction of life on earth...."
If one is afraid of the toxic smoke of the engine, do not build any internal combustion engine, because all homemade engines do not comply with any emission standards.
Some comments are off-topic, it doesn't matter to me , But don't be like the comments that are happening to this thread .

 

[Stefan-K]

Herewith ends my involvement with this particular topic.

Cool! I totally agree.