Ignition Systems

[putputman]

I don't know if this is the place for this question, but Rick, feel free to move it if not.

I have built several I.C. Engines and the ignition system seems to be the most trouble some and expensive part of many of the engines. Most of my engines use the old model T buzz coil. They are pretty simple to use but it is getting harder to find good ones and they are getting more expensive.

I bought most of them on Ebay, but some of them I purchased are no good. You take a chance when you buy them, as most of them are "buy as is" . I think they are getting pretty picked through and there are not a lot of good deals left.

I have a V-Twin that is Jerry Howell's design and Jerry's electronic ignition system. It uses the "hall sensor". It is pretty expensive (with the coils & sensors) and I find it pretty much designed to use on one engine.

My latest New Holland engine used an igniter system. That requires a lot of unique design and build and is pretty much designed for just that one engine.

What I am looking for is an ignition system that I can move from one engine to another, be it a 2 stroke or 4 stroke, or hit & miss, single cylinder or 2 cylinder, without a lot of difficulty. I would like to use a spark plug, and a small 6V or 12V rechargeable battery.

Keep in mind my background is mechanical and not electrical (so it must be simple), I'm retired and on a fixed income, (so I thought, but it is on a downward spiral) so it must be inexpensive, and small enough to hide in or under the engine or at least be not too intrusive on a model engine.

How is that for a challenge for you "spark chasers". :big: :big: I am willing to bet I am not the only one looking for this system. Come up with a system like that for a reasonable price, and you will be a hero to everyone on HMEM.

What are you guys using for your ignition systems?? ???

 

[gbritnell]

Arv, the simplest and probably the most inexpensive is a typical automotive type ignition system. I still use the one I made on occassion. I have a box with a 12 volt automotive coil, a condensor and 2 ceramic resistors from radio shack. The resistors drop the voltage down to about 8 volts. I have 5 terminals on the box, 3 up front for my points and high tension lead and 2 at the back for a 12 volt power supply.(motorcycle battery) I also have a small switch and a 12 volt pilot light to tell me when it's turned on. These came from Radio Shack also. The only thing necessary when using this ignition is that the points be made from tungsten because of the high current flow. I cut little pieces from a tungsten TIG electrode for this purpose. When I started out there was only one electronic system out there and it was made by Floyd Carter. The one Jerry Howell sells is and offshoot of Floyd's design. Nowadays there are several on the market. I agree they can be pricey, not the ignition per se but the coil for the system. I have several of Jerry Howell's ignitions and one from http://www.cncengines.com/index.html
I bought what they list as their single fire ignition. It comes with the transitor unit and coil all mounted on one small board. The total cost again is in the $50.00 range.

 

[Blogwitch]

Have you thought of piezo ignition systems.

Jan Ridders uses them to great effect on his engines.

Just a cam, and the piezo unit fires the plug directly, with nothing else required.

Have a look thru some of his engine designs and he shows how it works.

http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/...ht_verbrandingsmotoren/overzicht_frameset.htm

Just click on English for the translation.

Blogs

 

[putputman]

Thanks guys.

George, that looks like a reasonable solution at minimal cost. Do you have Radio Shack P/N's for the resistors etc and a wiring diagram? Would old auto or snowmobile points work out OK? I'm not sure how you used the tungsten points. Did you make the entire breaker system?

Blogs, I contacted Jan Ridder and he already sent me info on his piezo ignition. He also mentioned that the heavy duty system he uses are very difficult to get in the USA. I will do some web searches to see if I can find something. His system sure sounds simple enough.
I also requested his prints on his Atkinson engine as that is similar to the one I just finished and am looking for the ignition system for.
I will post some photos & a video of the engine.

 

[gbritnell]

Arv,
I got your email and made a sketch of the hookup plus the numbers for the Radio Shack parts. I sent it to you tonight so check your mail.
gbritnell

 

[putputman]

Thanks George, that's exactly what I needed. I'll buzz into town this morning and pick up the stuff and get it going. I'll use it on the Atkinson right away.

It sure is nice to have knowledgeable sources like you to help out in a jam.

I have a couple grand daughters coming this weekend and I have to show off a little like all granddads do. ;D :big:

 

[putputman]

George, I went to Radio Shack today. Ours is quite small. I asked for a pilot light, 1ohm resistor, etc.

"Oh, I'm not sure we have that stuff." Cell phones is their main item now.

I through them the P/N's you gave me, and we went right to the product. I ended up getting everything you listed -- plus.

The info you gave me made all the difference.

Thanks again.

 

[gbritnell]

Arv, actually there a 4-1ohm resistors. You can see by the sketch that there are 2 sets of 2 hooked together in series. I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear on that.
gbritnell

 

[bearcar1]

It is truly amazing the differences in the Rat Shack stores. Some cater to the home audiophile with stereos and cable TV devices, while others ham radio operators and cell phones. It is unusual that I have been in one that has the complete inventory in their catalog and even then, you had better not be looking to purchase multiples of some parts. :toilet: It's too bad to, because back in the late 70s and early 80s that was THE place for the home electronics nut to find parts he required for projects.


BC1
Jim

 

[putputman]

George, I see that now that you mention it. The resistors come two in a package and they only had one package. I thought I was home free. I'll have to check back with them to see when they will have more.

I did buy on heavy resistor at the Fleet store. I don't know what the value of it is but it is sold to go with the coils, so maybe it is all I need. I guess the worse that can happen is to burn up the points, I think???

 

[gbritnell]

Arv, if you've got one to go with the coil that will be the one to use. The purpose of the resistor is to drop the operating voltage of the coil to about 8 volts. Most cars that used the old point ignition system had a resistive wire. The coil would have about 12 volts on it when starting and then the circuit would drop down while operating. When I made my setup I didn't even go to see what the auto parts had available because I had the components in my junk box and used them.
gbritnell. You won't burn up the points using 12 volts, it will break down the coil over time.
gbritnell

 

[Cedge]

Gbritnell
I just plunked down for the solid state ignition system from CNCengines.com and was delighted with the abundance of advice and his offers to pre-assemble things so there would be no confusion when it arrived. I'll let you know how it goes, once it's here and installed.

Probably a good thing you had the spares in the junk box. I went to the local Autozone the other day to put together the parts to build my own ignition system and it was a frightening experience.

Me: I need to get a set of points, a 6 volt coil and a condenser...

Counter guy...what make and model?

Me... any 6 volt coil will do and the condenser too

Him.... I have to have a year and make for the computer.

Me... it isn't for a car and any make model and year is usable for my needs...

Him... I can't sell you anything without a year, make and model.

me.....Can you just look up 6 volt coils?

Him.... Nope.... I gotta have a year, make and model

I finally laughed and walked out. I can recall a time when a parts guy could quote endless part numbers off top of his head and tell you what would work in place of an out of stock item. Each purchase would get you personalized install advice, timing and gap information and nearly everything else one could need. There are no old time parts guys left and now you can't fix most things anymore anyway..

Steve

 

[cobra428]

Steve,
I have a WYSIWYG board and Coil from CNC on my Coles H&M. Roy is a great guy to deal with. We where emailing back and forth to get my troubles solved. He was always on the money. I am using a 4.8V NiCad and it will throw a spark a mile. You made a wise decision! Be carefull around the board, it will zap you. And your right about the auto parts store. Unless there is an "old timer" behide the counter.......your.....!

Tony

 

[gbritnell]

Tony, you're right about dealing with Roy. I had one of his units that had an internal spark along with the one at the plug. I emailed him and told him about it. He said "no problem, just send it back and I'll send you another". It works great.
gbritnell

 

[putputman]

Steve, I have run into the exact same thing with the same questions at our local auto stores. I to just walked away shaking my head. That is why I am so thankful for guys like George that are willing to go the extra mile to help others out.

Is the CNC ignition system you ordered one for a particular engine or will you move it from engine to engine?

 

[cobra428]

George, I went to a Hall instead of the "contactors" on the H/M. About a week after I got it, it went bad. I emailed Roy and boom new sensor replacement free!!
Tony

 

[halftide]

Hi folks,
This is a pretty old thread but I'm hoping it'll get bumped.

Could anyone confirm that a motorcycle coil, a briggs condenser, a spark plug boot and some 14 gauge wire is about all i'll need to set up an ignition system? I've done some research and I think I understand the principles, but I'm a noob.

Thanks so much.
P.S.
Not sure if this matters, but the engine that this set up will go on is a (semi accurate) replica of henry fords prototype engine. It shouldn't need crazy amps.

 

[tornitore45]

http://www.cncengines.com/ic.html

This place has a kit for $45.

I boxed it with switch and 3 AA batteries, and brought out a connector for the points/hall sensor and GND and HV wire.

I standardized the terminations on all my engines and move the box from one to the other.

It consume about 100mA so the batteries last a long time.