Could this be an engine to build ???

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You can build a model of anything you want. That does not violate a patent. Just don't take the ideas and resell them. Don't copy existing drawings and then sell them. If you want to design and build a smaller version you can do that.
 
If you design the engine and create your own set of plans, then yes you can build it and sell your drawings.

There are folks who believe that they can take a set of drawings, model the parts in 3D, and then sell the 3D models. That's not true. That is a copyright violation. They would need the original person's permission or design there own engine and sell those 3D models. You are basically creating a high tech copy of the work and selling someone else hard work.

I had made a lot of changes to the Peewee V4 engine and created a new drawing set. Much of the set still contained a lot of the original work done by the late Bob Shores. I could have sold just my changes to the drawings and been within my rights. The original work could have been edited out. Instead of mass confusion having to work from 2 sets, I decided to just give my complete set containing both Bob's work and mine to the copyright holder to be sold with the castings. Better for the builder, better for the hobby, and no issues with legalities.

It just comes down to having respect for the work and effort that someone else has into creating something. You design the smaller version and make drawings, you own them and can do what ever you want.
 
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You can build a model of anything you want. That does not violate a patent. Just don't take the ideas and resell them. Don't copy existing drawings and then sell them. If you want to design and build a smaller version you can do that.

This is false. The patent is for the design, not for the size. The design could work for any application at any scale. Even tough you make it yourself, this is infringement if a valid patent exists.

Using a design currently under patent is very different than drawing up plans for a 100 year old engine where the patent expired a lifetime ago.
 
dieselpilot .

This is false. The patent is for the design, not for the size. The design could work for any application at any scale. Even tough you make it yourself, this is infringement if a valid patent exists.
But I just based on that idea, pictures or video and I design it for myself
I won't design and build that engine, just want to understand more...
 
dieselpilot .


But I just based on that idea, pictures or video and I design it for myself
I won't design and build that engine, just want to understand more...
If you base it on his idea how he arrived at this engine ( which he may have a patent on then) you would be in breach of copyright.

The way I read the article "the principal is similar to the Wankel engine" but totally re-designed / re- engineered to overcome all of the problems that the Wankel engine suffered from.

Paul
 
Patent and copyright laws only come into play if you want to sell something.
There is nothing to stop anyone drawing and building an exact replica of another's design, provided it is not offered for sale.
Publishing copyrighted material (e.g. uploading drawings to a website) is also likely to breach copyright. Anything which is already in the public domain, such as ideas on YouTube videos, may be shared, but not sold if subject to copyright and/or patent.
Last year, I modelled the Whittle V8 in CAD. Hemingway own the rights, so I asked them before uploading the CAD model to the Whittle builders group.
I also intend to create a set of drawings for each part, hopefully easier to work from than Whittle's original.
These I will offer to Hemingway's to accompany the originals.
 
"Patent and copyright laws only come into play if you want to sell something.
There is nothing to stop anyone drawing and building an exact replica of another's design, provided it is not offered for sale."

Exactly! Design it and build it!
 
Say a company has a patented tool. You don't like the price. You buy one copy it, and fill your factory with said tool to help your production, never selling one. Is that legal? Infringement comes not from you not making money, but the patent holder not making theirs.

Go ahead and make what you want, but be informed, and not "I read it on a forum" informed.

Everyone makes choices. How does one say it's OK to copy a patented idea and then also claim a customer can only make one engine from a set of prints when the law doesn't stop anyone?
 
dieselpilot !
Say a company has a patented tool. You don't like the price. You buy one copy it, and fill your factory with said tool to help your production, never selling one. Is that legal? Infringement comes not from you not making money, but the patent holder not making theirs.

Go ahead and make what you want, but be informed, and not "I read it on a forum" informed.

Everyone makes choices. How does one say it's OK to copy a patented idea and then also claim a customer can only make one engine from a set of prints when the law doesn't stop anyone?

A small scale unit ??. Like model engine ..Still can't ?
 
A lawyer once addressed this issue by saying: "The law doesn't care whether you're a good businessman. Whether you make money is not the issue, it's that if you don't have the rights you can't do it." That statement was followed by a long discussion of what rights you might have under certain circumstances, such as education, immediacy, lack of repetition of the fair-use, etc.

As has been said, it is best to be fully informed if you want to "distribute" your work. You can probably do what you want for yourself in your own shop, but branching out from there may require you to consult some experts in copyright and patent law.

From the other side, I once made something that showed up under some else's name in mass distribution. I was more concerned that someone else got the credit rather than the potential loss of money, but it was definitely a blow to my ego. In the field of Education, I used to counsel clients publishing their work to make sure to use the statement provided by the lawyers to reserve the rights even if they wanted the material to be copied and distributed.

It's a two-way street.

--ShopShoe
 
"How does one say it's OK to copy a patented idea and then also claim a customer can only make one engine from a set of prints when the law doesn't stop anyone?"

Who said it was OK to copy a patented idea? I thought the idea was design your own, create your own prints, then you are good to sell your sheets?

You make it a condition of using the drawings that you agree to only making one and not being used for mass production or don't use them. I did it with my drawings. Did people build more than one, sure. Doc built 2 and it didn't bother me one bit. But if Doc or an other country were to ever try to mass produce them there was something in place.
 
Say a company has a patented tool. You don't like the price. You buy one copy it, and fill your factory with said tool to help your production, never selling one. Is that legal? Infringement comes not from you not making money, but the patent holder not making theirs.

Go ahead and make what you want, but be informed, and not "I read it on a forum" informed.

Everyone makes choices. How does one say it's OK to copy a patented idea and then also claim a customer can only make one engine from a set of prints when the law doesn't stop anyone?

An interesting scenario. I suspect something like that has actually happened many, many times. I would be very curious to know if such a case has been litigated, and how it came out. Perhaps the key there would be some definition of "commercial benefit" - even though the company did not benefit commercially by selling it, they benefited by copying the design.
 
The actual paddle-pump idea has been around since forever. Usually primary and secondary rotors are different sizes.
The new part is getting it to actually work well as an engine. Modern ceramic rotors probably help.

The centre "hot side" bearing and oil sealing could be issues. - maybe ideas lifted from jet engines?

There have been jet turbine engines that used rotary recuperators before - that has a similar problem. (Rover).

<edit>
Is there a more favourable mechanism that would work in a similar way?
A downside is that inlet suction, compression are on one side, and expansion and exhaust are on the other side.
1) The exhaust side gets very hot, and will need some cooling, otherwise it is likely to want to run at 7-800 degrees c as an average between combustion temperature and exhaust temperature.
This is worse than with a turbocharger turbine.

2) The high pressure transfer process is likely to be quite lossy.
3) The loading on the rotary valve is quite high, and draggy.
4) The porting in the rotary valve is likely to be complex, and rotary valves are difficult to cool.
One part runs exhaust only, one part does intake, and one part does transfer.
5) There are likely to be inner walls between each side chamber and the rotary valve. These need cooling channels on the hot side as well.
The intake side likely doesn't need extra cooling.
6) Is there a full set of working drawings available? The devil is in the details.

7) this design could be adapted to 4 cycles on the one rotor. It probably doesn't need two sets of rotors, or a hot side.
It may need 3 sets of disc valves, though, and a side combustion chamber.

This would extend past the area of tooth engagement.

8) One disc could go the other side of the side chamber, and act as the exhaust.
9) One disc is needed to stop backflow through the combustion chamber;
10) One disc is needed for inlet.

11) Poppet valves are really better than combustion-loaded disc valves, with the sliding seal action.
This creates more drag than the cam, cam follower, and poppet valve system.

12) Has anyone tried to replicate the drum system that was evaluated by Mercedes racing? - it looks really complex.
13) I have urls of a combined drum/disc system, which I will post here.

This valving system looks relatively buildable - again, working drawings are not supplied, so you have to work out a lot of detail.
I suspect the disc/drums float, and actual sealing is on the disc side.

He claims that the bearings do not take combustion load, so The disc must be loaded to oppose exhaust pressure.
There doesn't seem to be any floating seals.
Side-on piston rings would make good seals, but the opening shape is not so good.


Lots of good stuff in this lot!

http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatRoVa.htmhttp://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/PatRoVa_I4_90_P1_cover.gifhttps://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10966&start=1095
<edit>
Here is how a paddlewheel engine would work with 4 valves and a half engine speed camshaft, poppet valves,
and an offset combustion chamber.

Rotary valves would be tricky to include.

1) Requirements. - rotor clearances together and in the housing need to be very tight.
2) You need several gears, including a synchroniser set.

3) Could this be made to sufficiently tight tolerances?

4) is there a better rotor design that is more friendly to seals? - ie:
a) Sliding vanes - as in a vane engine. With an offset chamber, you need one moving vane and one fixed seal.
b) any other??
-Paddle tooth and a stop-start indexing wheel with seals. - Geneva mechanism? - image-
The indexing device can be arranged to move a pocket over the paddle once every cycle.
These devices are getting away from pure rotary action, though, and are likely to cause vibration.
The advantage is that you are not relying on two cylinders touching each at a point other to seal.
These would likely need spring-loading against each other to account for bearing tolerances.

5) How do you deal with sealing the sides and corners of the vane? do you use separate tip and side seals,
as well as round rotor seals?
6) You have the problem of a very long expansion "work" chamber.
Combustion should be complete before expansion starts.

7) Vane-type engines have not been historically successful.
Orbital Engines Co. did some work on a vane-type chamber.
 

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An engine I would really like to make would be a Liquid Piston Rotary.
How would I plot the 3-lobed casing and the 2-lobed rotor.
How would I machine such shapes?
Looking at it, the offset crank is rotating one way, and the rotor is turning the other way.
Both seem to be 1-1 ratio.

I also cannot figure out the port timing. The ports are in the rotor, and it follows a 4-stroke cycle.
This is inconsistent with my scheme for turning the rotor.
Does anyone have a better explanation on how it works?
<edit>
https://www.liquidpiston.com/how-it-works
The rotor appears to be spinning at half the main crank speed in the opposite direction.
The rotor spins anticlockwise, and the crank spins clockwise.
Does this look right?
Here are some important cycle stages. -images-.

This is a much more sensible system than the multi-paddle engine concept.

Its downside is that it runs on 2-stroke mix, and doesn't appear to be usable with

catalytic converters, as the exhaust is cool, and has cooling air mixed in with it.
 

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