Chinese Vertical Hit and Miss

[Cogsy]

After a few months of being curious, I got myself one of the Chinese Vertical Hit and Miss engines and thought I'd share my experience of it so far.

Straight out of the box it and first impression was that it was a very nicely machined and finished engine. I like the 'blasted-look' finish on the crankcase and cylinder and there's no machining marks to be seen anywhere.

There are some obvious solder joints on the fuel tank and the piping of the cooling system but they're pretty neat as well - probably a better standard than I could achieve so I can't complain.

There's a decent amount of brass used and it looks to me like the head and rocker assembly is made from bronze. The flywheels are steel outer rims and I think the centres are anodized aluminium. In my opinion they suit the engine quite nicely.

As you can see from the picture above, there's a starting pulley on the left side of the engine and it was supplied with a starting handle and a short piece of starting cord. In practice I didn't need to use the starting handle but it might be handy if you have hand issues like arthritis or something, although in that case you might want to change the starting pulley for some sort of spigot to use an electric drill for less starting effort.

So I was pretty impressed with how it looks and the apparent build quality at first glance. This post is getting long so I'll start another one.

 

[Cogsy]

So, what do you do as soon as you get your hands on a new model engine? Of course you turn it over to see how much compression it has right? So I turned it over and it had none! A couple of seconds of confusion and I found the rocker arm was 'sticky' and was holding the exhaust valve open. I shut it manually and the next spin showed a decent amount of compression. The sticky rocker recurred the next time the valve opened though, so it had no chance of running in that condition.

The rocker seemed like it was only 'just' sticking and I thought a little light oil might solve the issue so I administered a few drops and worked it back and forth for a while. That didn't seem to make any difference at all so I figured I needed to remove the rocker arm and just polish the edges a tiny bit with some wet and dry to fix the problem.

The pivot pin for the rocker is a ~2.5mm pin and is retained by a tiny circlip. Somehow even with my fat fingers I managed to remove the circlip without flinging it off into oblivion and having to source a replacement. It wasn't fun though.

Once the circlip was removed I was expecting the pivot pin to slip right out but it was reluctant to move at all. I got a small screwdriver under the head of the pin and got it to move a few millimetres before it refused to budge any further. Reluctantly, I removed the entire rocker pivot from the head (and the head bolts were super tight) so I could work on extracting the pin.

I had to resort to making a small drift punch and drove the pin out of the rocker without too much trouble in the end, but it would have been a difficult job to do with it mounted to the engine.

With the pin removed the rocker was still reluctant to come out of the pivot so I assumed there was a bit of a burr on one of the parts causing the sticking issue. Once I got them apart a few seconds with a piece of 600 grit wet and dry cleaned up the rocker and it moved very freely in the pivot and I thought the problem was solved.

When I went to check the fit of the pivot pin to see if it was tight in the rocker or the pivot itself, I found the actual cause of the binding. The pivot pit was intended to be a close fit in the pivot and rocker, but (I assume due to slight misalignment on assembly) the pin had been bent and was binding in the pivot and the rocker itself, as you can see in the picture below. A few minutes of gentle adjustments had the pin straightened out well enough to be reinstalled and the assembly then operated very freely.

Wow this is turning into a saga. Next up will be getting it running.

 

[Cogsy]

There weren't any detailed instructions on running the engine, which is what I expected to be fair, so I simply dribbled a bit of light 3-in-1 oil on the moving parts that I thought needed it. Based on the radial play in the crankshaft, I assume the main bearings are ball bearings, but I don't know if they are sealed or require lubrication through the crankcase so I thought it best to squirt some in there to be safe through the bung in the back (with the engine inverted for good measure). Then I gave it all a few spins and called that good enough for a start.

I also installed the 3 AA batteries for the ignition in the holder in the wooden base. I initially had an issue with the middle battery refusing to stay seated in the holder until I found a thin black elastic band was around the holder and I had trapped it between the batteries. I think this band is intended to keep the batteries in place but you have to install it correctly for it to have a hope of working.

As this engine is water cooled, with a nice brass radiator and is fitted with a water pump, I wanted to run it with water in the system and see if it worked. I used a syringe (without the needle) to fill the radiator and then spun the engine over to get the water pump operating. The water level in the radiator didn't seem to be lowering, although it was moving, so I figured the pump needed a bit of priming. Long story short (yeah right) I ended up filling the water jacket from the water outlet point on the back of the cylinder and then the pump seemed to be circulating the water as it pumped.

For fuel I used ordinary gasoline (petrol where I come from) with about 5% WD40 added for a bit of lubrication. This wasn't mentioned in the instructions but I run all my models with a mix like this so I just did what I'm comfortable with. Getting the fuel into the tank was somewhat problematic as well, as the small filler opening kept getting an airlock, even using a syringe. Eventually I worked out the best way to fill the tank was to remove the fuel line at the carb then attach the syringe to the line and fill the tank from the bottom. Not really difficult to do but took me a good few minutes of frustration to think of it.

Finally it was time to attempt to start it up and I was a bit nervous. Most of us have experienced the hours of frustration that is sometimes required to get a new engine to fire up the first time and the rocker issue showed this engine had not been started at the factory. I was then very surprised to have the first pops occur in the first few spins of the flywheel, and a couple of second run within the first minute of trying. Over the next couple of minutes I kept getting bursts of activity, though occasionally the intake valve appeared to be not quite seating properly and needed a 'bump' to get it to fire again. Within maybe 5 minutes or so I had it running reasonably happily and the hit and miss mechanism was working consistently.

I was playing with the fuel needle adjustment trying to get more misses and fewer hits and was surprised that it's not as 'touchy' as others I've encountered, then all of a sudden the engine quit on me and refused to fire back up. I wore myself out flipping it and adjusting the needle, including shutting it all the way off to try and clear it from a 'flooded' condition and I took a few breaks to recover. Eventually I managed to forget which way was 'ON' of the ignition switch (it's not marked) and tried to listen for the spark but I couldn't hear it with the switch in either position (I could earlier). I assumed from this that the plug was wet and shorting out so I decided to pull it out and check.

It turns out there's not much room on the head and I had to remove the rocker post again to get a spanner on the plug. The plug was also tightened more than I would be comfortable tightening it, but it came out okay and wasn't damaged at all. It did come out dry though and it showed me that I wasn't getting a spark from the ignition at all. It turns out the little 'jump' that the engine gives on each hit was enough to overpower the thin elastic band holding batteries in place and one had popped out. A much more robust band was fitted and I haven't had that problem again.

I've only run a bit over a tank of fuel through it but I can confirm the radiator does get warm so the cooling system seems to work as intended. It runs a bit faster than I'd prefer but is quite small so that is somewhat to be expected.

In conclusion, I think this is quite a good little engine for the money (certainly far less than I'd want to be paid for making it, even without the active cooling system). I would recommend it to someone who's a 'hands on' type person and maybe has some experience with model engines but based on how 'fiddly' it is to fuel, prime the water pump, etc. and for the potential of having to fix a few minor niggles, I don't think it'd be suitable for a 'newbie' to the hobby.

Being that I didn't make it myself, I'm planning on building some sort of device for it to drive in the future, so I can personalise it a little bit. As delivered, the disc containing the magnet for the ignition has the OD machined to accept an o-ring so driving something should be trivial. I also plan on experimenting with some lighter governor weights and see how slow I can get it to run..

I know a few places online sell these and they all look the same in the pictures, but I don't know if they vary by supplier. I got mine from www.stirlingkit.com and their service was good. They did claim that each engine was supposed to have been started before being dispatched but I think the rocker issue means mine must have slipped through the system.

Thanks for reading if you got this far!

 

[Richard-Vanderpol]

hi bro, do you have any video of it?

 

[perko7]

Interesting little engine. I could possibly use one of them for an upcoming project, depending on its size. Had a look at the Stirling Engines site, couldn't find any dimensions though. Are you able to measure overall width/length/height/flywheel diameter and post that info on this thread? Thanks.

 

[CFLBob]

A few days ago, YouTube offered me a video on a 4 cylinder engine that the guy got from Stirling Kits. It was the first I'd heard of them. He does a lot to get it running, but not as much as you do on this one - it's more like final assembly than troubleshooting the bent pin and all.

Like others have said, it would be cool to see a little video of it running.

 

[Kevlamar]

I do not have the vertical model but i have purchased several of the horizontal ones by same builder. They are all supposed to be tested pre shipping but i suppose a few may slip through the cracks. They are well built for the price and run very well. however the biggest problem i have encountered so far is the way the flywheels are held to the shaft with only a simple set screw. there is no gib or even a slight indention in the shaft for the set screw to recess into. So it is only a matter of time before the set screw becomes loose enough for the flywheels spin on the shaft. by the time this happens the set screw will have already "chewed up" the shaft which can make getting the flywheel off the shaft a problem. To remedy this problem the flywheels need to be taken loose and shaft needs to be filed down or drilled so the set screws have something to hold onto.

Concerning making it run slower, this can be achieved by putting lighter springs on the governor

I have one turning a 1 pint, white mountain ice cream freezer and it gets a lot of attention!

hope this helps

(in this pic the belt is not connected. there is a 3/1 gear-down ratio on the belt side and another 6/1 gear-down ratio on the chain side which gives it a total gear-down ratio of 18/1 so it has plenty of power to actually freeze a batch of ice cream)

 

[JimDobson]

Cogsy thanks heaps mate for this detailed write up....super appreciated.

 

[JimDobson]

@Cogsy what fuel are you using? I've tried Shellite, but don't think my two run as well on it as they do with Zippo (both mixed about 20:1 with a good two stroke oil).

 

[Cogsy]

I use normal petrol (robbed from the lawnmower jerry can) with about 5% WD40. Seems to work well although some don't like the smell.

 

[JimDobson]

I haven't tried normal petrol yet, only the Shellite and the Zippo fuel which both have rather a pleasant smell.

 

[teeleevs]

Thanks for the write up on the vertical model, my friend has a Horizontal model from the same builder, it has roller bearings on the crankshaft mains and a brass slipper in the bigend all need a drop of light (sewing machine ) oil occasionally, it doesn't need much oil in the fuel (20-1 is deffinately too much, I think my friend mixes 70-1 and it still makes a mess ) just a few drops in ordinary petrol, The piston ring is a high temperature rubber ring and not presenting much wear to the cylinder. WD40 contains a great percentage of deodorised kerosine and the lubricant is some type of wax, great for polishing old silver spoons but I would not recomend running an engine on it. My friend found the governor catch was not even latching just holding the valve open by friction, a few strokes of a file fixed that. You need lighter springs not lighter weights to have it running slower, a quick fix is to remove one spring.
Ted from down under, also thanks for the info re flywheel security.

 

[Steamchick]

COGSY: WD40 is great for many things, but is acidic and accelerates corrosion if not cleaned off and replacement oil film or wax applied. It has some compounds that "may appear" to lubricate, but used in industry (IMHO) the lubricity is very poor and will soon fail and allow scuffing. Petrol and Paraffins do not lubricate - OILS do. - So a teaspoon of diesel oil is much better in your petroil than any WD40! DERV is specially developed to lubricate the diesel fuel pumps of the engine as it passes through, so has additives to improve lubricity that do not exist in Central Heating boiler fuel. Kerosene/paraffin DOES NOT have any lubricity, nor corrosion inhibiting properties. It is just fuel. (if you try and run a diesel vehicle on pure paraffin or petrol or similar, it will destroy the fuel pump in a minute or less! - In production of cars we had to guarantee the first fill DERV was of a suitable good enough grade for lubricity to avoid any fuel pump damage on start-up. This upset purchasing who wanted to "buy the cheapest" DERV available. - Hence the fuel purchased was certified - at a cost! - but MUCH cheaper than even a few knackered fuel pumps on engines!).
Sorry to sound blunt, but after spending lots of time and effort on making an engine it is a shame to destroy it by a single run with stuff that is BAD for the engine. - in a factory, there are thousands built every day - so the wrong materials can cost a fortune in destroyed engines, etc.
But maybe the only engine you made is even more precious?
Only a fool spends a fortune on capital cost then destroys it with "cheap" running materials like oils, fuels and filters... But I hope I am preaching to the converted, not the cheapskates.
K2

 

[Cogsy]

COGSY: WD40 is great for many things, but is acidic and accelerates corrosion if not cleaned off and replacement oil film or wax applied. It has some compounds that "may appear" to lubricate, but used in industry (IMHO) the lubricity is very poor and will soon fail and allow scuffing. Petrol and Paraffins do not lubricate - OILS do. - So a teaspoon of diesel oil is much better in your petroil than any WD40! DERV is specially developed to lubricate the diesel fuel pumps of the engine as it passes through, so has additives to improve lubricity that do not exist in Central Heating boiler fuel. Kerosene/paraffin DOES NOT have any lubricity, nor corrosion inhibiting properties. It is just fuel. (if you try and run a diesel vehicle on pure paraffin or petrol or similar, it will destroy the fuel pump in a minute or less! - In production of cars we had to guarantee the first fill DERV was of a suitable good enough grade for lubricity to avoid any fuel pump damage on start-up. This upset purchasing who wanted to "buy the cheapest" DERV available. - Hence the fuel purchased was certified - at a cost! - but MUCH cheaper than even a few knackered fuel pumps on engines!).
Sorry to sound blunt, but after spending lots of time and effort on making an engine it is a shame to destroy it by a single run with stuff that is BAD for the engine. - in a factory, there are thousands built every day - so the wrong materials can cost a fortune in destroyed engines, etc.
But maybe the only engine you made is even more precious?
Only a fool spends a fortune on capital cost then destroys it with "cheap" running materials like oils, fuels and filters... But I hope I am preaching to the converted, not the cheapskates.
K2

Not sure where you got your information from but checking the WD-40 official website suggests it is not accurate in terms of lubrication effectiveness and corrosiveness. From the website itself "WD-40® Multi-Use Product is a unique, special blend of lubricants. The product’s formulation also contains anti-corrosion agents and ingredients for penetration, water displacement and soil removal." source: LINK.

Many, very well known and respected, modellers use/have used a blend very similar to the one I use (that's where I learnt it) and have kept track of running characteristics and component wear over a great deal of time to come to the conclusion that such a mix is an ideal model engine fuel.

I've never heard of anyone using diesel in petrol as a lubricant but I would expect that too much would potentially coat the spark plug and foul it. In my opinion a more volatile lubricant is required which can 'burn-off' the plug. Diesel fuel in a diesel engine is a very good lubricant but I suspect there is a very good reason it's not used as a petrol additive.

 

[awake]

Cogsy, I agree with you - which may be alarming, as my agreement probably increases the likelihood of error, but I digress ...

According to wd40.co.uk, "It does not contain any carcinogens, teratogens or mutagens. It does not contain any heavy metals. WD-40 doesn't contain any substances covered by SVHC (Substances of Very High Concern). It also doesn't contain any silicone and WD-40 is acid free."

I do wonder, though, about the ratio, based on some comments above - when I have mixed in WD40 at about 20:1, my Webster has been harder to start and run less smoothly. Maybe I need to try something more like 40:1 or even 60:1 ...

Finally, on the subject of filling the fuel tank: I had a similar situation when I made my Webster, but I resolved it by designing and 3d-printing a funnel with an air relief:

Those pictures make it look way bigger than it actually is. The tip is only 6mm in diameter, and the mouth of the funnel is 52mm in diameter. It is just over 60mm tall. I've included the .STL file in case you want to print one out, and I've also included the OpenSCAD file that generated it.

I printed mine in PETG, and after nearly a year of use with Coleman fuel and sometimes a bit of WD40, it has not deteriorated at all. Of course, if it does, it won't take long to print another.

 

[deverett]

I do not have the vertical model but i have purchased several of the horizontal ones by same builder. They are all supposed to be tested pre shipping but i suppose a few may slip through the cracks. They are well built for the price and run very well. however the biggest problem i have encountered so far is the way the flywheels are held to the shaft with only a simple set screw. there is no gib or even a slight indention in the shaft for the set screw to recess into. So it is only a matter of time before the set screw becomes loose enough for the flywheels spin on the shaft. by the time this happens the set screw will have already "chewed up" the shaft which can make getting the flywheel off the shaft a problem. To remedy this problem the flywheels need to be taken loose and shaft needs to be filed down or drilled so the set screws have something to hold onto.

Concerning making it run slower, this can be achieved by putting lighter springs on the governor

I have one turning a 1 pint, white mountain ice cream freezer and it gets a lot of attention!

hope this helps

(in this pic the belt is not connected. there is a 3/1 gear-down ratio on the belt side and another 6/1 gear-down ratio on the chain side which gives it a total gear-down ratio of 18/1 so it has plenty of power to actually freeze a batch of ice cream)
View attachment 119609

I like that set up!
Where did you find a 1 PINT bucket? the smallest I have seen is a 1 QUART bucket.
More to the point: does it make good ice cream?!

Dave
The Emerald Isle

 

[fwwbronco]

I do not have the vertical model but i have purchased several of the horizontal ones by same builder. They are all supposed to be tested pre shipping but i suppose a few may slip through the cracks. They are well built for the price and run very well. however the biggest problem i have encountered so far is the way the flywheels are held to the shaft with only a simple set screw. there is no gib or even a slight indention in the shaft for the set screw to recess into. So it is only a matter of time before the set screw becomes loose enough for the flywheels spin on the shaft. by the time this happens the set screw will have already "chewed up" the shaft which can make getting the flywheel off the shaft a problem. To remedy this problem the flywheels need to be taken loose and shaft needs to be filed down or drilled so the set screws have something to hold onto.

Concerning making it run slower, this can be achieved by putting lighter springs on the governor

I have one turning a 1 pint, white mountain ice cream freezer and it gets a lot of attention!

hope this helps

(in this pic the belt is not connected. there is a 3/1 gear-down ratio on the belt side and another 6/1 gear-down ratio on the chain side which gives it a total gear-down ratio of 18/1 so it has plenty of power to actually freeze a batch of ice cream)
View attachment 119609

Bro, key the shaft and broach the pully. We had the same problem with some pullies and tried locating the set screw and drilling the shaft. Problem with that is that when you get in to a hard pull and the driver (motor fires) it twist in the shaft and is a bugger to remove, even to the point you cant get it out with out drilling and that's another problem all together.

 

[Steamchick]

Thanks Cogsy, WD40 formulation must have changed over the decades. I first experienced it in the late 1960s as I bought a tin (cost a fortune!) and professed how good it was for cleaning and shining my Honda C100.... and my mentor (ex. RAF flight engineer and time served toolmaker) gave me a rollicking for not cleaning it off and polishing the surfaces for protection, using a wax polish (very durable). 3-in-one oil had the same reputation of cleaning because it was acidic - so as I remember both removed rust tarnish very nicely! The 3-in-one was something I learned about from a PO Mech in the Navy... We cleaned surfaces that had recent rust rings from splashes using the light 3-in-one, but then used a heavier engine oil to wipe-down "for rust protection" afterwards. - The "Oily Rag" remedy!
So I'll admit I am a bit "out-of-date". Teeleeves - Thanks for you input re: WD40 containing kerosene. I would add that "waxes" - while they feel slippery, are not the best lubricants. Again, my advice (from Grease manufacturers) is that Grease is made from Oils suitable to do the job, mixed with a blend of WAXES to make a matrix that has the correct desired properties for sticking in place against gravity, etc, and lubricating (withstanding the bearing loads) when compressed and locally melted to release the oil molecules. I.E. The OILS do the lubrication, not waxes. I'm surprised WD40 contains waxes, as (decades ago, in the Navy) I used proprietary "Duck-oil" for "waxing" surfaces for water-proofing.
I do use WD40 to de-water steam engines after use, then ensure they are liberally oiled with modern Engine Oil before storage.
From my automotive experience from a Texaco chemist, the corrosion inhibitors in Motor Oils are commercially excellent. While there are some better (specialist) products, motor oil is a very cheap and mostly "good enough" alternative.
As an alternative to DERV - for your "in cylinder light oil lubricant", have you considered "upper cylinder lubricant"? Both that and DERV are meant to burn in combustion chambers and have additives to promote combustion, but may be too heavy for model "flea power" engines? Certainly much lighter than my experience of regular 2-stroke oil.
Incidentally, as a lad, I was taught to wash parts in DERV instead of Paraffin, as Paraffin - like WD40 - "dries" the oils on the surface (dissolves oils and greases and washes them off), whereas DERV leaves the surfaces very slightly oily. And my recent (only 5 years or so ago) experience re: the lubricity of decent DERV versus "cheap" DERV comes from company directives from the Diesel Engine manufacturers - and I discussed this with their engineers so I could ensure the DERV we used for first-fill use was of a suitable lubricity. - It comes from special additives only put into DERV. (I.E. not domestic boiler fuel - which otherwise uses the same basic oil fraction as DERV).
Maybe it is just odd "special" knowledge reserved for those "in the know" in certain areas of industry?
But if you have no problems with your current stuff, then just ignore my ideas. I'm not offended. You have experience that I do not.
Incidentally, I heard that in Australia, gravity points in the opposite direction to here in UK. I suppose you'll explain it by saying "the Earth is not flat" - or some such new idea...?
Cheers mate!
K2

 

[el gringo]

I do not have the vertical model but i have purchased several of the horizontal ones by same builder. They are all supposed to be tested pre shipping but i suppose a few may slip through the cracks. They are well built for the price and run very well. however the biggest problem i have encountered so far is the way the flywheels are held to the shaft with only a simple set screw. there is no gib or even a slight indention in the shaft for the set screw to recess into. So it is only a matter of time before the set screw becomes loose enough for the flywheels spin on the shaft. by the time this happens the set screw will have already "chewed up" the shaft which can make getting the flywheel off the shaft a problem. To remedy this problem the flywheels need to be taken loose and shaft needs to be filed down or drilled so the set screws have something to hold onto.

Concerning making it run slower, this can be achieved by putting lighter springs on the governor

I have one turning a 1 pint, white mountain ice cream freezer and it gets a lot of attention!

hope this helps

(in this pic the belt is not connected. there is a 3/1 gear-down ratio on the belt side and another 6/1 gear-down ratio on the chain side which gives it a total gear-down ratio of 18/1 so it has plenty of power to actually freeze a batch of ice cream)
View attachment 119609

I like that set up!
Where did you find a 1 PINT bucket? the smallest I have seen is a 1 QUART bucket.
More to the point: does it make good ice cream?!

Dave
The Emerald Isle

Is there a way to use a 1qt bucket on a slightly larger engine? What is the bore/stroke on the horizontal that is used for the 1 pint bucket...I have in mind a 1.25bore x 2 inch engine I design built

 

[JimDobson]

Not sure where you got your information from but checking the WD-40 official website suggests it is not accurate in terms of lubrication effectiveness and corrosiveness. From the website itself "WD-40® Multi-Use Product is a unique, special blend of lubricants. The product’s formulation also contains anti-corrosion agents and ingredients for penetration, water displacement and soil removal." source: LINK.

Many, very well known and respected, modellers use/have used a blend very similar to the one I use (that's where I learnt it) and have kept track of running characteristics and component wear over a great deal of time to come to the conclusion that such a mix is an ideal model engine fuel.

I've never heard of anyone using diesel in petrol as a lubricant but I would expect that too much would potentially coat the spark plug and foul it. In my opinion a more volatile lubricant is required which can 'burn-off' the plug. Diesel fuel in a diesel engine is a very good lubricant but I suspect there is a very good reason it's not used as a petrol additive.

Yes Steamchick is wrong again.

There are countless people running these small H&M engines using the WD-40 mix and clocking up countless hours on them. Longest single run so far from a friend of mine is just shy of 5 hours.