Ban on small engines in California

[aarggh]

Good, healthy discussions on "green" energy and pollution are always interesting, in OZ we had a ban come in that got rid of the free "bio-degradable" shopping bags in all supermarkets, with the view that customers would use their own bags. What happened of course is that the estimates were that the supermarkets would save around $400m p/year by not providing bags, and make around $600-800m p/year selling the new very thick plastic (non bio-degradable) bags we all use that break after a couple of uses depending on what you fill them with. Then of course everyone also started to have to buy actual garbage bags as well as almost every houses bin was designed to re-use the old bags for garbage bags.

Then of course you've got the whole incandescent vs CFL globes and the manufacturing and disposal issues there.

But this short video by Jordan Peterson responding to a question about climate change is an absolute beauty, whether you like him or not, you have to admit he is one of the most well read and educated blokes in the world, the breadth of his knowledge is amazing, he doesn't just spout garbage like many do:

 

[L98fiero]

Good, healthy discussions on "green" energy and pollution are always interesting, in OZ we had a ban come in that got rid of the free "bio-degradable" shopping bags in all supermarkets, with the view that customers would use their own bags. What happened of course is that the estimates were that the supermarkets would save around $400m p/year by not providing bags, and make around $600-800m p/year selling the new very thick plastic (non bio-degradable) bags we all use that break after a couple of uses depending on what you fill them with. Then of course everyone also started to have to buy actual garbage bags as well as almost every houses bin was designed to re-use the old bags for garbage bags.

Then of course you've got the whole incandescent vs CFL globes and the manufacturing and disposal issues there.

But this short video by Jordan Peterson responding to a question about climate change is an absolute beauty, whether you like him or not, you have to admit he is one of the most well read and educated blokes in the world, the breadth of his knowledge is amazing, he doesn't just spout garbage like many do:

I agree that getting rid of single use plastic bags was a good idea and was accepted by retailers because it saved them money but replaceing them with a different plastic that falls apart wasn't that great an idea, here in Ontario most stores sell reusable cloth bags that are good for years.

For lights in my home and shop, I've almost completely switched to LEDs, might have to change them one more time in my lifetime just like the metal roofing we installed instead of the cheaper asphalt shingles.

As for Peterson, he's really good at rationalizing why, because we aren't 100% sure of what to do we should do nothing, that isn't really a plan.

 

[mu38&Bg#]

Ah the CFL scam became the LED scam. I fell for CFL, none had a reasonable life. Went LED, and except for a few bulbs, all of those ALSO failed long before the claimed 50,000 hours. Poor design, poor execution. If you want good LED bulbs do not buy no-nane ChinaCo. Buy real established name brand for a better chance at seeing rated life, don't chase lumen ratings. The only LED bulbs still going are some fairly low rated Phillips Edison base. The CREE all died within two years. I think one fo the replacements already failed. Sure they warranteed them, but real costs were still incurred. I really expected Cree to be top tier. Hyperikon, 60% dead, and the company is bankrupt... Cheaper brands drive the LED diodes too hard, and they die early. I thought the drivers were failing, but it wasn't the case. Some research showed poor design.

Are LED better? Certainly. Do they live up to the claims? Only if you pay for premium brands.

 

[lohring]

Sales information is about the future. It will take years to replace the current IC vehicles, but it's starting to happen. There are several countries where electric car sales share is high lead by Norway at around 75%. It's already over 10% in Europe. I believe Tesla sold more cars in California in September than any other brand. Electric pickups and semis haven't been available, but are coming. I think low operating costs will make them a no brainer for commercial users.

Plug in electric mowers have been available a long time. Batteries are just starting to replace power cords. Do you want to trade your electric washing machine for a gas powered one? That conversion happened in the last half of the 20th century. It won't be long before the same thing happens with most small gasoline powered tools. That will leave a lot of junk engines for people to invent things with just like the Maytag gas washing machine engines. We've already started that trend in our model race boas with weedeater type engines. However, battery electric power is starting to take off even there.

Lohring Miller

 

[roncohudd]

I know we have gone somewhat off topic but I feel I must toss in my 10c worth........

I too believe climate change is real – my problem is that I believe it is almost entirely natural – it has never been static – and I can’t believe that man is the cause or can control the climate with the magic molecule CO2 which is :-

Only 0.04% Of the atmosphere
Has 99.99% of it’s CO2 infra-Red absorption spectra already saturated
And man’s output is 4% of mother nature’s natural cycle. (All facts you can and should check.)

Multiply that out to 0.000000016 and you want to control the climate with that factor ? – pull the other leg it’s got bells on.

That’s excluding volcanos – which because of uncertainties might reduce that by a factor of up to 20 times less (we don’t know) - the most likely value is about five times.

"Anyone who goes around and says that CO2 is responsible for most of the global warming in the 20th century has not looked at the basic numbers."…Professor Patrick Michaels, Dept. of Environment Sciences, University of Virginia.

Calculations by van Wijngaarten and Happer across the many absorption frequencies by H2O, CO2, CH4 (methane) and N2O (nitrous oxides) yield exceptionally good agreement with satellite-based temperature measurements. They showed that absorption by CH4 and N2O are both completely negligible, regardless of the fictional calculations of “Global Warming Potential” (GWP.)
View attachment 130257


Prof. William Happer. Professor of Physics at Princeton University

The difference between the black and red line is the difference between current 400ppm CO2 and the “catastrophic” effect of “doubling” to 800ppm CO2

Hard to see a difference that is cause for any concern.

Review or download the paper at Cornell University :-

[2006.03098] Dependence of Earth's Thermal Radiation on Five Most Abundant Greenhouse Gases

Also an article published as International Journal of Modern Physics B, Vol. 23, No. 3 (2009) 275–364 , DOI No: 10.1142/S021797920904984X

[0707.1161] Falsification Of The Atmospheric CO2 Greenhouse Effects Within The Frame Of Physics

Cornell University – Falsification of the atmospheric greenhouse conjecture.

Both peer reviewed scientific papers based on repeatable empirical, experimental and observed data - not the fanciful multiple order "modeling" which is often touted as "Data" turning centuries of science on its head.

Certainly temperatures are well correlated to CO2 but then again so are flying saucer sightings – correlation without causation.

Before we go wrecking the global economy to ward off a largely imaginary problem you need to be sure of your facts.

Don’t believe me or anyone else – and particularly not the alarmism touting, scientifically ignorant mainstream media.

I have been studying this for over 15 years and remain solidly unconvinced in the validity of almost all of this farrago. My "notes" on this run to over 220000 words - which I have as a 17Mb MSword document file - if you would like a copy send me a PM.

I'm not a "denialist" but I am a skeptic - which should be the default mode for any scientist - not belief or fashionable grant seeking dogmas so prevalent amongst academics over this, the latest doomsday cult to inflict itself on mankind.

Regards, Ken

This climate change or global warming discussion is futal. If you really want to know about it look at the Bible in. Second Peter chapter 3 verse 8-13.

 

[H. K. Barrows]

Simple I"m just going too rate my engines 20 HP and build bigger model boats

 

[CFLBob]

Sales information is about the future. It will take years to replace the current IC vehicles, but it's starting to happen. There are several countries where electric car sales share is high lead by Norway at around 75%. It's already over 10% in Europe. I believe Tesla sold more cars in California in September than any other brand. Electric pickups and semis haven't been available, but are coming. I think low operating costs will make them a no brainer for commercial users.

Plug in electric mowers have been available a long time. Batteries are just starting to replace power cords. Do you want to trade your electric washing machine for a gas powered one? That conversion happened in the last half of the 20th century. It won't be long before the same thing happens with most small gasoline powered tools. That will leave a lot of junk engines for people to invent things with just like the Maytag gas washing machine engines. We've already started that trend in our model race boas with weedeater type engines. However, battery electric power is starting to take off even there.

Lohring Miller

Gas washing machine? Haven't seen one.

I've been converting major appliances to gas power over the last decade. While my electric costs have gone down, my gas bill went up but nowhere near as much as the electric came down. My total energy costs have gone down.

There's absolutely zero reason to think that a modern gas-powered washer would look anything like the one in that Popular Mechanics link. My gas stove, gas oven, water heater or clothes drier sure don't belch visible exhaust like that and I'd be surprised if there were any washers in the world that did (that aren't that old).

Common sense (and physical law - conservation of energy) says you don't get something for nothing. If everyone converts to electric cars, we'll have to increase the electric grid capacity by somewhere between doubling and tripling generation.

In the US, the power grid steps down to the final transformers that feed three to four houses. Those transformers are rated 25kW. Each house is rated somewhere near 15 kW. How does 3x15 or 45 kW work on a 25 or 30 kW transformer? The same way the phone companies got away with 10% of the number of subscribers as the number of phone lines to install. They expect that not everyone will be using them at the same time. Remember in the old days when the phone system overloaded on Mother's Day? That's why.

What happens when all three houses plug in their electric cars for the next day? What if everyone was charging cars overnight? They'll need to increase power to every home, which means every transformer needs to get bigger. And that's every step of the way back to the power plants getting bigger. I know this will take years to get to, but it's as predictable as pure math.

Both the presidents of Toyota and of Tesla have been honest enough to say this publicly.

 

[chrsbrbnk]

wow, really brings them out

 

[Vietti]

I've heard that if everyone went with electric vehicles it would double the electric demand, which can't keep up on a hot day now.

I wonder what happens to an EV when it's -30 outside and you want to keep the car heated and drive a few miles?

 

[dazz]

People are still working on hydrogen. Splitting it from water is only about 50% efficient, but that is totally fine if your energy source is free (like the wind or sun).

That isn't quite the whole story. The energy source might be free but harvesting it is not. There is a relationship between energy density and the cost of steel and concrete to extract it.

Something like natural gas (free in the ground) burning in a gas turbine has a high energy density and a small light engine can generate a large amount of power.
Something like wave energy requires much larger structures (=$$$cost) to extract energy. Maintenance and operating costs are also high.

I worked for a power company and looked at a wide range of generation options.

 

[dazz]

I've heard that if everyone went with electric vehicles it would double the electric demand, which can't keep up on a hot day now.

I wonder what happens to an EV when it's -30 outside and you want to keep the car heated and drive a few miles?

Most EVs should only need to be charged overnight. It is not unusual for power stations to offer electricity to the market at a zero or negative rate overnight. It does depend on the climate and season. It can be cheaper to give away free power than to shut down a power station each night.

 

[L98fiero]

That isn't quite the whole story. The energy source might be free but harvesting it is not. There is a relationship between energy density and the cost of steel and concrete to extract it.

Something like natural gas (free in the ground) burning in a gas turbine has a high energy density and a small light engine can generate a large amount of power.
Something like wave energy requires much larger structures (=$$$cost) to extract energy. Maintenance and operating costs are also high.

I worked for a power company and looked at a wide range of generation options.

The problem with the gas though is the downstream costs which are never taken into consideration.

Same with plastic, they are less expensive to produce but only if you don't consider that they are essentially non-recyclable and some have a 'half life' of hundreds of years, in Canada, and I'd assume the US is about the same, regardless of all the places that have recyling bins, less than 10% is recycled. In Ontario the soda manufacturers give the provincial government a few million so they don't have to have deposits on plastic bottles, it saves them a lot of money and the government then has recycling depots to separate the plastic which is then bundled and 90% is dumped in landfills.

 

[dazz]

The problem with the gas though is the downstream costs which are never taken into consideration.
...

My point wasn't to defend or promote any particular technology. My point is that the economics are complex and not what might seem to be obvious.
The science supports the view that we are wrecking the planet.

 

[lohring]

My point is that change is comming. It's a Kodak (you still buy their film, right?) moment for fossil fuels. How many of you still have land lines connected to rotary phones? In our area the phone company won't run new lines to new construction leaving cable or cell phones as the choice. I (78 years old), and most young people use cell phones only.

After centuries of use, horse drawn vehicles were replaced by IC engine powered ones in around 20 years. Why? Because they were lower cost and easier to use. It took a little longer for the infrastructure to catch up. The same is becoming true for electric power in mobile applications. Large boats and aircraft are tough with today's technology, but lower power applications are starting to happen.

I think people are barely starting to realize that electric cars cost less to operate than IC cars. My experience was around $100 lower cost per month 3 years ago. Gasoline prices have been increasing since then while electricity in my area has stayed the same. There is no maintenance except for window wiper and washer fluid and tire replacement. That's why Hertz paid list price for a fleet of electric rental cars.

Lohring Miller

 

[SmithDoor]

A horses is renewable power just take that downtown in most cities. My city let's horse come to town
I have land line most do not know most cell towers have 4 hour battery. Even my internet has battery backup for about 24 hours. After that start the generator and recharge the battery.

Dave

My point is that change is comming. It's a Kodak (you still buy their film, right?) moment for fossil fuels. How many of you still have land lines connected to rotary phones? In our area the phone company won't run new lines to new construction leaving cable or cell phones as the choice. I (78 years old), and most young people use cell phones only.

After centuries of use, horse drawn vehicles were replaced by IC engine powered ones in around 20 years. Why? Because they were lower cost and easier to use. It took a little longer for the infrastructure to catch up. The same is becoming true for electric power in mobile applications. Large boats and aircraft are tough with today's technology, but lower power applications are starting to happen.

I think people are barely starting to realize that electric cars cost less to operate than IC cars. My experience was around $100 lower cost per month 3 years ago. Gasoline prices have been increasing since then while electricity in my area has stayed the same. There is no maintenance except for window wiper and washer fluid and tire replacement. That's why Hertz paid list price for a fleet of electric rental cars.

Lohring Miller

 

[Nerd1000]

That isn't quite the whole story. The energy source might be free but harvesting it is not. There is a relationship between energy density and the cost of steel and concrete to extract it.

Something like natural gas (free in the ground) burning in a gas turbine has a high energy density and a small light engine can generate a large amount of power.
Something like wave energy requires much larger structures (=$$$cost) to extract energy. Maintenance and operating costs are also high.

I worked for a power company and looked at a wide range of generation options.

Aye but in a lot of cases the solar or wind farm already exists, what we want to do is store the excess capacity when conditions make it possible to produce too much power (otherwise we have to 'abate' the renewables to avoid disruption of the grid, and their capacity is wasted). Of course pumped hydro or batteries are more efficient, but if there is significant demand for hydrogen it might be worthwhile.

 

[GrahamJTaylor49]

The Scottish government have purchased 20 Teslas for transporting the delegates from their hotel at Gleneagles to the conference center for the COP26 conference. The price of the cars is £100k each. Having bought the vehicles the idiots have found that there are no charging points anywhere near the facilities and have had to bring in a bloody great diesel generator to charge the vehicles. So much for climate change and saving the planet, and the Chinese, the largest contaminators on the planet, won't be attending. What a waste of resources. God bless the Scottish government.

 

[JLaning427]

The Scottish government have purchased 20 Teslas for transporting the delegates from their hotel at Gleneagles to the conference center for the COP26 conference. The price of the cars is £100k each. Having bought the vehicles the idiots have found that there are no charging points anywhere near the facilities and have had to bring in a bloody great diesel generator to charge the vehicles.

I haven't verified the accuracy of your claim regarding no charging stations.

However thinking about charging Tesla's from a diesel generator, I don't think it is as bad as IC cars would be.

Think about how a car operates. You have a pretty powerful engine (well over 100hp available in any situation) that you throttle down to make the power you actually need. But to do so, you give up huge efficiency. And all that heat we reject to the air from the radiator and exhaust is all wasted energy too.

Electric cars are much more efficient at using the power they have available to them.

And a turbocharged diesel generator running at or near full load will be pretty efficient at converting the input btu's into output kw's. Not as clean as running the thing on Nat Gas, mind you, but....

Overall, I think it likely that this scenario of 20 electric cars and one generator is likely more fuel efficient and less polluting than 20 IC cars. But not as good as plugging the cars into some kind of existing reasonably clean electric infrastructure.


And yes any discussion that doesn't fully involve the world's 2nd superpower and biggest polluter, is a fools errand. We cannot fix global issues without addressing the emissions from China. No possible solution exists without their active involvement, IMHO.


Someone mentioned gas washing machines earlier, but didn't clarify the gas was gasoline, not natural gas Not something that I want in my house. A nat gas washing machine? Maybe.


This is a very interesting thread, and has covered much more ground than I would have thought, but has made me think. Certainly makes me wonder about where things are going. I wonder what the CA market for used gasoline lawnmowers and generators will look like in 2 years. Especially with rolling blackouts and the like already happening, and the load on their electric utilities getting worse. Might be able to buy a generator in AZ, put oil in it and run it for a couple hours, and sell it in CA for a profit.....

But I don't see CA banning building air conditioning, which is likely one of the biggest user / consumer of electric power in residential and commercial applications these days.. Can you imagine working in most high rises if they were 105° F inside? Or warmer? Nope. Not going to happen until the grid fails, even if they have to burn coal to do it.

James

 

[L98fiero]

I haven't verified the accuracy of your claim regarding no charging stations.

However thinking about charging Tesla's from a diesel generator, I don't think it is as bad as IC cars would be.

Think about how a car operates. You have a pretty powerful engine (well over 100hp available in any situation) that you throttle down to make the power you actually need. But to do so, you give up huge efficiency. And all that heat we reject to the air from the radiator and exhaust is all wasted energy too.

Electric cars are much more efficient at using the power they have available to them.

And a turbocharged diesel generator running at or near full load will be pretty efficient at converting the input btu's into output kw's. Not as clean as running the thing on Nat Gas, mind you, but....

Overall, I think it likely that this scenario of 20 electric cars and one generator is likely more fuel efficient and less polluting than 20 IC cars. But not as good as plugging the cars into some kind of existing reasonably clean electric infrastructure.


And yes any discussion that doesn't fully involve the world's 2nd superpower and biggest polluter, is a fools errand. We cannot fix global issues without addressing the emissions from China. No possible solution exists without their active involvement, IMHO.


Someone mentioned gas washing machines earlier, but didn't clarify the gas was gasoline, not natural gas Not something that I want in my house. A nat gas washing machine? Maybe.


This is a very interesting thread, and has covered much more ground than I would have thought, but has made me think. Certainly makes me wonder about where things are going. I wonder what the CA market for used gasoline lawnmowers and generators will look like in 2 years. Especially with rolling blackouts and the like already happening, and the load on their electric utilities getting worse. Might be able to buy a generator in AZ, put oil in it and run it for a couple hours, and sell it in CA for a profit.....

But I don't see CA banning building air conditioning, which 8s likelybonebof the biggest user / consumer of electric power in residential and commercial applications these days.. Can you imagine working in most high rises if they were 105° F inside? Or warmer? Nope. Not going to happen until the grid fails, even if they have to burn coal to do it.

James

Sounds not so much like an electric vehicle or air conditioning problem as an infrastructure problem.

 

[davidyat]

AAHH, the human being. Ask the question, "Why is there air?" and thousands of humans will chime in with their opinion on why it's needed and why we don't need it. And remember, opinions are like arm pits, everyone has them and they all stink, even mine. My opinion, the problem is too many humans. We screw up everything. Nature was doing just fine until humans came along. I've seen my life go from rather simple to excruciating complicated. I've likened my life like a strand of spaghetti. At 5, I could follow my strand. Pretty simple. Then it split into 2 choices. OK, I can follow it. Then 2 split into 4, then 4 into 8, etc. Today, it's like you take 200 pounds of cooked spaghetti and dump it on a table. I see my one strand going into the pile and I have no idea where it comes out. Life is complicated, why do we humans make it MORE complicated?