economical materials

Good day all,
I have 2 steam plants Im wishing to make water tanks and condenser/oil traps for. Given the cost of copper tube, I was wondering if anyone has experience using alternate materrials?

Steel alloys is used for high temp/pressure.
Stanley firetube boilers was also made steel with wire warped around it.

Historically wrought iron has been used for boilers.

Copper have better thermal conductivity and is probably better for condensers, but increased area with steel/iron will give the same heat exchange capacity.

Water tanks could be made of pretty much any material, they should see less than 100 Celsius after all.
They may need to handle vacuum if you are building a true closed cycle system.

Thank you. My first water tank was a simple soup can disguised by cladding with mahogany strips. Looked ok from outside but inside disappointed as it was obvious what its origins were.
Copper is just sooooo expensive these days I am just looking for alternatives for applications that dont require copper ie watertanks, oil trap etc.

Could you make a timbertank from mahogany or alike?
No cans or copper just wood.

I use food tins that have had pipes soft soldered in place. Always become a talking point and rarely negative. Tin plate will rust, but cared for they can last more than 20 years! Free and ecological?
I have a hidden passion for the Engineering of manufacture of tins, so as cheap material they get used a lot!
(plastic packaging is simply short-life.. less than 12 years!)

This boat has a flat grey-painted tin that originally contained mints.... at the LH end of the engine bay, used for condensate that is recycled to the boiler. I start with it half-full. Condensate with oil separates as the oil emulsion floats inside the tin, and warm water is pumped back into the boiler. I have had no issues of boiler water contamination - yet.
The boat also has the bottom of a gas tank (the dome off the bottom) that makes a container where the condensate from the concentric tube condenser (mounted along the keel) passes under the gas canister, to keep the canister warm, to prevent gas pressure from dropping (@ below 15 C). Only 20 years old, but tin plate with tin-lead soldered joints lasts quite well...

This feed-water tank TIN started life in 1995... It probably contained instant coffee, or cocoa powder originally?

The stainless steel cladding on the boiler started life in a domestic gas fire that was being scrapped...

This tin was made into a ceramic burner.... but only lasted 14 years before a rust hole allowed gas-air mix to escape so I found a new tin to replace it.

Bottom LH corner of this photo you can see the Spam tin. Dark green Paint has worn off showing original SPAM paintwork! It is a feed-water tank that also has a copper tube coil for condensate to pre-heat the feed-water. Only used "temporarily" for about 15 years or so...

Mums Dads and kids all enjoy working out what I have used, when they see these things in use on Show days. They may not understand the engines, boilers, etc. but they feel a bit connected when they recognise the tins!
I also use flat tins a lot for ceramic burners.
This was a biscuit tin.


This one had Greek food (Dolmades? Beans? Meatballs?)


A sardine tin:

A 2in square Mint tin:


I guess that's enough?
Maybe I should be called "Tin-pot Ken"? - Such useful items, accurately and well made, steel, plated for corrosion resistance, cheaper than copper... replaceable, recyclable material... and they come in a variety of sizes to suit many jobs. What more do you need?
K2

Steamchick,
Thank you very much for taking time to show what can be done with the "tins"! I especially liked the tins used for ceramic burners as I have a horizontal boiler build coming up soon!
You have definitely opened my eyes to new possibilities!

You asked... I did my bit!
A free-thinking mind doesn't want to pay for anything it can think of...

And factories make better tins than I "can" (There is a pun there somewhere...).
K2

I will add my thanks. I've been re-reading a 1919 book, Making Tin Can Toys, this is a great addition!

Ron

As recently as the 1950s people were using tin cans for the tin-plate to make model ships - caulked with bitumen (Tar) and riveted onto bent steel bar frames... But sadly many that were used regularly (so were frequently wet!) rotted/rusted and have been scrapped. I was given a very iffy boiler from one that had been scrapped - by a younger generation who were not interested in Grandfather's hobby... The copper made another boiler - a bit less Iffy! Also I bought an old brass engine from another tin-plate boat that had rusted away.
Many models cannot be kept/maintained, and while some have some value for posterity, most are just "boys toys" that have outlived their appreciation....
I have inherited some of my Father's models, but also bought others that were simply being sold at around scrap value. - Because I thought they were toys I would appreciate?

I also bought a Juneero press tool:
https://images.app.goo.gl/VSpU37qAeRw3fxiP7
because I appreciated it was intended to make "home-made Mechano" by cutting strips of tin-plate and then assembling using nuts and bolts through holes punched-in the strips and plates.
The tool I have is rather worn, but still works with care.

Live, Laugh, Love, and keep on making stuff! (If you derive the pleasure from making and using the stuff! - That's its real value.).

K2

Steamchick said:

I also bought a Juneero press tool:
https://images.app.goo.gl/VSpU37qAeRw3fxiP7
because I appreciated it was intended to make "home-made Mechano" by cutting strips of tin-plate and then assembling using nuts and bolts through holes punched-in the strips and plates.
The tool I have is rather worn, but still works with care.

Live, Laugh, Love, and keep on making stuff! (If you derive the pleasure from making and using the stuff! - That's its real value.).

K2

Click to expand...

Interesting looking. eBay gave me an Australian listing. It has the English patent number, 441157, but being unfamiliar with how that system has changed over the years, I failed trying to find the patent.

Steamchick said:

I also bought a Juneero press tool:
https://images.app.goo.gl/VSpU37qAeRw3fxiP7
because I appreciated it was intended to make "home-made Mechano" by cutting strips of tin-plate and then assembling using nuts and bolts through holes punched-in the strips and plates.
The tool I have is rather worn, but still works with care.

Live, Laugh, Love, and keep on making stuff! (If you derive the pleasure from making and using the stuff! - That's its real value.).

K2

Click to expand...

Posted too quickly. https://circuitousroot.com/artifice/construction-toys/juneero/

terry123 said:

Good day all,
I have 2 steam plants Im wishing to make water tanks and condenser/oil traps for. Given the cost of copper tube, I was wondering if anyone has experience using alternate materrials?

Click to expand...

If it is real then copper.
If making just model for show there lots of choices.

If try on your work around same size helps.
Looking at hardware store for copper tube and using the same size you 10 foot tube.
Until get to large size like over a inch then this costly. Fined a commercial plumber and buy rems

Dave

For models:
As the water-tank is only at "atmospheric" pressure, very thin copper or brass, or aluminium, or stainless steel, or tinplate, etc. can be used. Un-plated steel will probably rust too quickly. Tin-lead or similar soft solder is OK for water tanks (cold, unpressurised applications).
And if size is suitable, there are domestic (air fresheners, etc.) sold in aerosol cans of pressed aluminium that can be converted into water tanks. Or Coke tins, beer cans, etc. or a variety of other Domestic waste re-cyclable metal cans that will work, and can be made to look as good as you wish.
For models, tinplate can last longer than my Father's 1995 tin, that must have been used for at least 150 steamings in the last 30 years. (probably nearer 500?). Never painted, always works... Just dried after use. Tin gives about 10 times the protection of zinc on plated steel. That is why it is selected for food use, and suitable for this application. Tin-based solders are easy to use on tinplate, and maintain the corrosion resistance at the joints. (IMHO it is a proper Engineering material, but I like to hear other ideas? N.B. it is too expensive for cars, which is why cars do not use tin plate, just the food industry.).
Tins from domestic waste that are re-cycled come under my interpretation of "economic materials" - Copper and brass isn't "economic" for me, it uses real money. - Just an opinion regarding the title of the thread. It really depends on where you live and your view of "economic"? I would simply not bother with plastic for a model water tank, though many with 3D-printing machines think it will soon rule the world?
Ken

Steamchick said:

For models:
As the water-tank is only at "atmospheric" pressure, very thin copper or brass, or aluminium, or stainless steel, or tinplate, etc. can be used. Un-plated steel will probably rust too quickly. Tin-lead or similar soft solder is OK for water tanks (cold, unpressurised applications).
And if size is suitable, there are domestic (air fresheners, etc.) sold in aerosol cans of pressed aluminium that can be converted into water tanks. Or Coke tins, beer cans, etc. or a variety of other Domestic waste re-cyclable metal cans that will work, and can be made to look as good as you wish.
For models, tinplate can last longer than my Father's 1995 tin, that must have been used for at least 150 steamings in the last 30 years. (probably nearer 500?). Never painted, always works... Just dried after use. Tin gives about 10 times the protection of zinc on plated steel. That is why it is selected for food use, and suitable for this application. Tin-based solders are easy to use on tinplate, and maintain the corrosion resistance at the joints. (IMHO it is a proper Engineering material, but I like to hear other ideas? N.B. it is too expensive for cars, which is why cars do not use tin plate, just the food industry.).
Tins from domestic waste that are re-cycled come under my interpretation of "economic materials" - Copper and brass isn't "economic" for me, it uses real money. - Just an opinion regarding the title of the thread. It really depends on where you live and your view of "economic"? I would simply not bother with plastic for a model water tank, though many with 3D-printing machines think it will soon rule the world?
Ken

Click to expand...

Good point
Commercial Plumbers go up to copper pipe
TYPE L and type K
Type K is up 1,900 psi
Type M is junk.

I never use even for drinking water type M it is a waste of time.


Thank you
Dave

Type M should be OK for a feed water tank. For Cold water at atmospheric pressure. 0 psi .
But why waste money on copper tube for a water tank for a model? Brass looks better, Aluminium can look good and be free, Tin plated steel can be free.
I use my money for very thick walled copper tube for boilers according to the ASME calculations. So feed water tank material using tins makes sense to me to save money for where I need it.
K2